THOR

[ando76 4,354]

again cool explanation. Yeah it is wasted spark in either 3 or 6 coils because of the number of ignition outputs of the ecu is limited (4).

A more modern ecu would do it better for sure but I have this one so I'll use it. When I eventually get around to the turbo x-flow (probs when I'm 50) I'll buy a better ecu.

 

I'm sure it will work. Larry Perkins used the identical setup in the year he won Bathurst with the old car. I respect Larry because of his no nonsense engineering background and I know he wouldn't have used it if it didn't work. Like I say if I was starting with nothing I'd probably do it different but I'm using what I had and I think the matching brand CDI was a good option, considering the price.

 

That coil in the link is identical to the MSD coil I was looking at in its structure. Probably made in the same place and it's $10 US cheaper. I wonder if they have the specs for the coil? They are US based by the looks. Did you buy your coil thru them in the US?

I like that they sell the connector as well. Will make for tidy install.

 

Cheers for the info and link. I'm learning more about this electricity stuff by the day. Again, what I love about this forum.

[slydog 7,873]

I understand the multi coil for leed/load time vs single coil. But the big factor for me was based on out put potential. I spoke with many smart tuners not builders and the common thing was running multi over single was there was HP gain myth to be had over a big single.All said you can make the same hp at slightly less timing values thats it. Doesn't support my gain with the ute of a Digital7 v's 6AL2 with the same locked timing and no extra on the crank but it did show a 10hp gain.No changes bar CDI box and coil.

So if we are talking out loud about single vs mulit its a tuning tool more than a power adder as such. You should be able to make a safer tune for the same out put though imo. Perfect on a highly strung engine to make it safer.

 

Not detracting on the thread Ando just input for the multi v's single and CDI to inductive.

[ando76 4,354]

Nah mate all good. I'm happy for the discussion. As I said a couple of posts ago, I don't think it will make any more power as such but it might make it nicer. If it makes the same power as single coil but with less timing then that tells me, from a tuners point of view, that the engine is more efficient with multi coil. I also think it will be an interesting excercise.

 

The thing with an alcohol based fuel over petroleum is that the complete ignition system has to be bloody good. Otherwise it will show very quickly.

 

My brain is a little fried atm as I've been on the dyno all day trying to sort a pesky e85 LS that has a lot of issues. Interestingly they run similar stuff as to what I'm looking at with the crossy and you can screw some good power out of them.

 

I have emailed the tech section of the link provided by crazy. Hopefully I will have some specifications on their coils and they will come in the same as the MSD. then I can grab them and tick another thing off the list.

[Crazy2287 1,886]

That coil in the link is identical to the MSD coil I was looking at in its structure. Probably made in the same place and it's $10 US cheaper. I wonder if they have the specs for the coil? They are US based by the looks. Did you buy your coil thru them in the US?

I like that they sell the connector as well. Will make for tidy install.

No problem. Yes I buy a lot of my ECU stuff from them. And they are US based. DIY auto is no fuckin around and super reliable.

The only downside is when you fuck a coil you can't just waltz down and get a replacement. It's a internet order and about 5 day or 3 weeks depending on postage speed chosen. So there is that downside to these sort of imported parts.

 

I'm not sure with this coil, But the IGN1a that i use, is rebranded by a other places. This is identical item but without any branding. and it's a bit of a weapon. Anything over 100mj of energy is serious business. But the problem with internal igniters, it's easy to cook em if you fk up. Ask me how i know.

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/ign-1a-race-coil/ Not suitable for CDI though.

 

For example: http://www.aemelectronics.com/files/pr/071211_High_Output_Coils/High_Output_Coils_PR.html Looks familiar?

 

All this guru talk is making me itch to work on ECU's again

[slydog 7,873]

100mj is decent grunt for sure and it is pretty much right on the plug. Funny how they have the same deets and look the same but have different names on em LOL. Like the Comp Cams pushrods in the ute that look surprisingly like the Trend 1's they replaced with the exact same lazer etching and so on.

 

But anyway moving forward from this control is going to be the biggest factor and benefit here which if sorted early and easily will make for a solid reliable platform cos we we know most engine blows ups are due to tune and or abuse not component failure.     

[broken-wheel 659]

I know you already have an ECU but for the money this will do everything you want: http://www.haltech.com/elite-750/ and I would use the LS coil packs, guys make 2000HP with them so they do have enough juice

 

 

Here is why I think the Haltec rocks,  5 x Digital Pulsed Outputs you can use these to do a lot of cool things like:

 

Drive an electrical water pump based on load via maps (fans too) you will need a DC solid state relay which are awesome

Gearbox Bump

Timing retard based on IR (use an IR sensor to monitor how much the front of the car raises from ground and retard timing)

Zillion other things 

 

I know you already have the ECU but it's an old one and things have moved on since then. It might sound like a lot of money to spend now but in long term it will pay for itself. You also have a lot of options to save the engine/gearbox based on temperature of oil/cyl/air etc. Your ECU has almost none of the features that is pretty much required today, I think you should sell it and add some $ and buy something that will have you achieve your goals with less headaches. You will also need logging, specially of the tailshaft vs rpm so you can really dial in the converter among other things

[ando76 4,354]

Yeah mate I'm well aware of the Elite and its potential but to be honest in my application I doubt the spend would be worth it.

 

I can control the water pump and it's operation with an off the shelf Davies Craig pump and controller. I need the ewp anyway so the controller is not much more to spend. The autronic has the capability to turn the thermo fan on and off based on various parameters.

I can achieve the same zap with the MSD cpc coils I have settled on and the CDI I currently have.

 

The autronic is old but it is more than capable of logging, both within the ecu and direct to laptop. Plus with the 'one gauge' I am installing I can monitor AFR from my AEM AFR gauge based on time. Add to that I have the use (on loan) of the autronic specific (0-1 volt) AFR meter that will also log direct to ecu. The one gauge can also monitor gearbox temp and a few other things.

 

The convertor issue I will get on top of very early as I will be starting this engine and tuning it in manual form. The corty is currently manual (top loader) and I will set up and tune the engine in this form so I get raw, solid data on where peak torque is occurring. All without having to take the engine a minimum of 400ks to put on an engine dyno. And even then an engine dyno is not indicative of what is occurring when the engine is running its own exhaust system, fuel system etc. etc. I have the use of a very modern mainline 4 wheel dyno for $0, 200 metres from my shop so for me it is a no brainer.

 

The owner of that shop is a great mate and has just come back from the Haltec Elite course, hence I know exactly what they are capable of doing. The emtrom is also an awesome new ecu and is cheaper than the Haltec. Funny thing is when you speak to dudes that do a lot of ecu based tuning, and I'm talking high end Ferrari race cars, and they say other ecu manufacturers could learn a lot from the way autronic (Richard Aubert) does his fuel cal tables, well I start to listen.

 

I have experience with the Haltec platinum sport 1000, and the older Haltec GM based units and I can tell you that this old smc runs with them in all aspects and in some it is actually much more user friendly.

 

Don't get me wrong if I was starting from scratch, without having spent coin on a very decent ecu, then I would have an emtrom of Haltec elite in a heart beat. Old Ray Hall still believes the smc is a very capable ecu. If you read street machine you may have seen an article on Brenton Millers' blown Lexus v8 powered centura. He drove it from Cairns to do Drag week, then did tread cemetery burnouts on the way home back to cairns. All powered by an old autronic smc. I can tell you that they are old, but are a very good ecu.

 

I appreciate your input and if I honestly believed there was significantly more HP or torque or any better tuning advantage by going to the elite, then I would have one. But for now, I am more than happy to use the autronic and matching CDI 500r. Nothing on this engine will be left to chance and I will be giving it a good workout on the dyno in both manual and auto form before it even looks like heading to a drag strip. I love the rolling road and I love pouring over the twin LCD screens worth of data it spits out. It just such a great asset that I am very fortunate to be able to use. Without it I'd be lost.

[XPT 673]

If the Autronic can be trusted to keep a mega dollar 600+HP 5L V8 alive for 1000km on 98, I dare say it will be fine running a 250 between 5-7k rpm for 11ish? seconds at WOT on methanol.

[ando76 4,354]

My thoughts exactly XPT. I got an email from Richard last night to confirm that the both the ecu and CDI tested fine. Both were bought second hand so I had them checked. Glad they got a clean bill of health.

 

Anyway whilst I have been researching the coils and the like, I've kept busy designing the fuel rail. Factory rail measure 3/4 ID. I wanted a tad more volume in the rail due to the methanol, just to be safe. I ended up using some 22mm ID hydraulic tubing. It has a stupidly high burst pressure so I will not be stressing that. I looked at the Aeroflow alloy rail but it was only 5/8 ID.

 

If this was to be a circuit race car I would have went for a smaller ID. Reason? Because with a big rail you can get increased fuel temps. Why? Beause the fuel stays in the rail longer and therefore it is exposed to the high under bonnet temps. Up to 60c higher in a circuit racing super sedan. I won't have that problem cause I don't plan on being on the track for that long. 11ish seconds would be good.

 

Anyway here are some photos to break up all the talk in the thread. -8 fittings for each end of the rail and -8 fitting (one with long notched end on it) for the return/reg. The rail will be fed at each end by twin 044 pumps. I'll use a bit of flex out of the pumps and run 1/2" Id hydraulic tube under the chassis, then some nice flex up in the bay. And yes it does need twin 044's. I've done the math and so has Pat at competition systems. Once I have the injectors I can make the rail and support brackets.

 

I'm using the injector fittings off the stock ef rail. They are pressed and soldered into the factory rail. To get them out I have just been slicing open the rail behind the boss. Heating it up to bloody hot to melt the solder and then a decent tap and out they come. I'll drill the holes at the correct spacing in the new rail and then silver solder them in. I know, bit tight arse but it works and I'm re-using so that's good for the planet.

 

The other 2 fittings (blackish ones) are for the supplementary oil return to sump. It will be welded to the new sump when I get around to making that. The other one is getting welded to the factory efi fuel pump block off plate. It will be attached to the back fitting on the top of the rocker cover and will serve as a balance tube for the vac pump. More hi tech stuff. Lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TF_250 398]

Question,

 

If this engine had a carb and ran on petrol ie 98 then was converted to meth how much % more fuel would be needed?? 50, 60, 80, 110??

 

What rail pressure are you looking at running?

[gerg 10,871]

Hydraulic fittings for the win, who cares if it's 5000% overkill. Aeroflow is pretty but way overpriced in my opinion, and you don't drive down the street with your head under the bonnet.

 

Have you thought about getting it all plated in nickel or something to protect it from the ethanol?

[ando76 4,354]

Jason, 50% more is a rough guide. At 70% duty cycle a 970 cfm injector would suffice at 3bar. I'm going a fraction larger to be safer and run a slightly smaller duty cycle at 3 bar. Pat @ competition systems concurs and he re-did the math with me just now.

[ando76 4,354]

Yeah we were only talking about corrosion resistance yesterday. Current plan is to heat the fittings to damn hot then drop in sump oil. Bit old school but it works. Of course the outside would have to be cleaned so the fittings can be tigged to the tube but that's no biggy.

 

I can't leave methanol in the rail or the injectors. It will be a case of emptying the tank and running petrol through the fuel system/ injectors after every race meeting. It sounds like a crap load of work but once you've had a methanol car it all just becomes routine.

 

I like shiny fittings and I will run them in the bay and boot but where you can't see it, I'll use tube and steel fittings. I get my fittings very cheap and yes I will use more fittings by going this way but when you add the cost of front to backing the car in braid x3 it starts to get a bit silly.

 

Current plan is to bend the solid tube up nice with the car up on the hoist and then weld the 3 pipes (2 feed, 1 return) together with a sort out tie bar and then use the tie bar to neatly attach it to the chassis.

[slydog 7,873]

I know a guy who leave's meth in the lines,engine,what ever doesn't start the car for like 6mths at a time and only use's a cherry additive and N E V E R has fuel issues.He is a seriously cheap bastard and rather weird but never has trouble.  

[ando76 4,354]

Yep. I used to do the same with the carb race car. Just kept it wet. Never had a problem. I'm a bit freaked by the injectors tho. It says in the blurb from Bosch Motorsport that they must be flushed. I'm not taking the risk rob.

They aren't cheap items.

[Crazy2287 1,886]

Your JIC fittings and rail tube all look like stainless? (Dispite the dirtyness?)? You don't have to worry about that corroding.

 

I got my stainless JIC fittings from china for less than $10 ea http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/230788633595?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

If your injectors say to purge em, you better purge em.Although it sounds a bit weird to hear Bosch are making current evolution injectors that are not alcohol safe?

I like the way you are doing this, Tube and reusing the injector bosses. Respect!

 

Gerg - Aeroflow ARE hydraulic fittings. They use the 37º tapered seal same as JIC. Threads are the same too. Agreed JIC is MASSIVE overkill for fuel systems. I dont know why this had become the Motorsport standard? Barb fittings and hose clamps will easily support the pressures needed for even the most hectic 100PSI fuel systems.

[gerg 10,871]

Yeah Crazy I know they're JIC, I'm a HV mechanic and most of my work is on plant equipment. I just referred to "hydraulic fittings" as generic industry ones (ie Ryco, Duffield, etc) vs nice pretty race car Aeroflow ones is all. I certainly wouldn't use Aeroflow on a 3500 psi hydraulic system.

[ando76 4,354]

Yep. The rail is stainless but the fittings are mild steel with a coating, most likely a nickel,zinc mix. Bosch Motorsport injectors are e85 and metho safe but I think they are just covering there arse with the purge thing. I'll do it as it could be a month between race meets for me the way work is. I need to fix that as well.

 

Cheers for the respect crazy. I try and re-use stuff where I can. I mean there is nothing wrong with it and it will do the job and it costs my time. Makes up for all the other stuff I have to buy.

 

I'm going to order the coils next week and then injectors and ewp and controller. That's the limit of the fun funds for the moment. After that I'll concentrate on the rail and sump as they are just time costs for me.

 

I'm smashing out a bit of work on the shop ute so I can get the MSC happening as well. Sorted that pesky LS and made 78@ the tyres and a much happier engine (& customer) so a very rewarding week. Just need some more time and fun funds.

[slydog 7,873]

 Funds to pay for more pretty stuff is always good. Keep moving forwards bro,you will get there.  

[ando76 4,354]

Yep mate. Just learning this electricity thing a bit more as I go and trying to make it the best apple cart I can. Pat has been a great help as his Richard at autronic. Plus you guys keeping me honest.

[slydog 7,873]

LOL...ute is going again (only dizzy foot brake car atm) and has given me a itch to get it on. But need to test it basic like before I move to crank trigger,cyl timing,spray,trans brake and so on. Still a while away from close but getting there.

 

Competition is good for the breed bro.ATM Im at the bottom but loving every second of if cos it's out there doing it anyway.You will be there soon enough...

[ando76 4,354]

Yeah mate. Big re-structure coming at the end of the financial year so I should have more time on the corty and other projects.

[Crazy2287 1,886]

Do NOT fit poxy steel fittings. Whats your address? I will buy you stainless fittings myself if i have too.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AN8-8AN-JIC-MALE-FLARE-STAINLESS-STEEL-WELD-ON-BUNG-FITTING-ADAPTER-ROUND-BASE-/230788710944?hash=item35bc144220:g:S8MAAOxy63FSqCfj

[ando76 4,354]

All good mate. Been thinking I'll re-do them in stainless. Will make it easier and nicer for the TIG welding.

[slydog 7,873]

Do NOT fit poxy steel fittings. Whats your address? I will buy you stainless fittings myself if i have too.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AN8-8AN-JIC-MALE-FLARE-STAINLESS-STEEL-WELD-ON-BUNG-FITTING-ADAPTER-ROUND-BASE-/230788710944?hash=item35bc144220:g:S8MAAOxy63FSqCfj

 

 

All good mate. Been thinking I'll re-do them in stainless. Will make it easier and nicer for the TIG welding.

 

 

LOL you got told bro...