Crossflow Build Advice

[NZXD 2,328]

Great piece of advice ^^^.

[Nath 1,975]

Nath answer this question and be totally honest with yourself don't tell anyone the answer if you don't want but make sure you answer is honestly. Look into the future and see yourself driving your car and look at the tacho. Do you see the tacho revving over 6500rpm for long periods of time? If the answer is yes then look at the forged bottom end either the deal you can get or the spool kit that Sly said about. If you only see 6500rpm and over for a short period of time just run a standard 250 setup and use pistons from here http://www.precisionintl.com/ . I bought my pistons for my solid roller cammed crossflow with 10.5CR that I'm hoping will make over 300RWHP and will have rev limit set to around 6200rpm and they cost me $220 with hastings rings.

Seriously mate everyone likes to rev the engine a bit but you seem like you have a bit of mechanical sympathy so I can't see that you need to go to the expanse of a 200 rod setup. 200 rod setups are the same as e series cranks in a crossflow, if your revving high in the rpm range for long periods of time then it warranted (like a race car) other wise save yourself $2000 and spend that money else where.

 

That's good advice mate. Honestly I can't give a definite answer either way. I do intend to get a cams license eventually and would be pretty interested in putting it in some hill climbs and other stuff just for fun. It's definitely not gonna be a dedicated track car though and I can't see that happening more than a few times a year. If you reckon I can get away with the 250 rods for that then I will take your advice.

 

You're probably right, I am getting a little carried away. If I can track the gear down and it'd only cost me a bit extra then yeah I'd jump on it. I liked the idea of finding an ACL kit because all the suppliers just sell them (if they have any) for not much more than a standard kit AFAIK.

 

If I save on the machining then I may have coin left to splurge on a spool kit but that's still a big maybe anyway.

 

That kit Sly suggested is more like a "best case scenario because I got everything else discounted" option.

 

I will take a look at the precision ones.

 

At this stage I know what I want from it, I have the block and head ready to go, I just need to decide on which specific bits to buy from where. I do like the idea of a kit that just has everything... Saves stuffing around.

[PRO250 1,506]

I have a 200 rod engine in my shed basic engine little 208 hydraulic cam 10 points of comp 4 barrel no rollers very basic but a  running engine done about 5000km

I also a built 200 rod engine but this is more a drag/super tough street engine very large solid cam rollers ported head its in bits built short head in a bag but its all there it did 240rwhp untuned and killed a oil ring so I built it again but I have clevos so its still in the bag  

And I have a set of +20 acl race pistons but no ring set

Ive seen the light and if its not boosted or blown it sits in a bag HAHA

[wagoon 2,429]

Let me put it this way, are you going to be over 6500rpm for more than 2 minutes at a time with no break in between or less than 20 seconds between 6500rpm and be running like this for over 10 minutes? If the answer yes forged bottom end, if answer no get $220 piston pressed onto rods for $80. You will then have what ever size bore you want with good rings at the correct compression ratio (precision have flat top, 8cc dish, 15cc dish, 20cc dish and 29cc dish) and over 2 grand to buy an aussiespeed manifold and new 4 barrel carby with change to buy you first tank of fuel. Or a set of forged pistons that will still need assembly and no mainfold, no carby and no free tank of fuel all cause you MIGHT ONCE rev the engine over 6500rpm for more than a minute and tell your mates you have a forged bottom end

[Nath 1,975]

Let me put it this way, are you going to be over 6500rpm for more than 2 minutes at a time with no break in between or less than 20 seconds between 6500rpm and be running like this for over 10 minutes? If the answer yes forged bottom end, if answer no get $220 piston pressed onto rods for $80. You will then have what ever size bore you want with good rings at the correct compression ratio (precision have flat top, 8cc dish, 15cc dish, 20cc dish and 29cc dish) and over 2 grand to buy an aussiespeed manifold and new 4 barrel carby with change to buy you first tank of fuel. Or a set of forged pistons that will still need assembly and no mainfold, no carby and no free tank of fuel all cause you MIGHT ONCE rev the engine over 6500rpm for more than a minute and tell your mates you have a forged bottom end

Well I can't argue with that haha. Guess it's decided then.

 

Thanks for all the input guys.

 

Tomorrow Ill start compiling a list of all the specific brands and sizes etc. Hopefully I can order everything within the week.

[ando76 4,354]

I'll say one thing.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=509iendKbO8

 

All that with stock 200rods, ACL cast pistons and that engine has been together for near on 8 years before that skid in the same form.

 

Think you are going to treat your engine harder than that - Go the forged bottom end.

 

Apart from that - I have nothing to add.....

[wagoon 2,429]

And don't forget if you have a forged bottom end you are going to need the parts to support that. Plus a crossflow that spins over 6500 rpm for long periods is a pretty serious engine and it's going to need some very good parts to support that. Believe it or not my roller is just a basic crossflow build with a bit of focus on the way the cylinder head works to take advantage of the camshaft, nothing else. Look at what Ando has achieved with his burnout ute with just a flat tappet cam (yes it has meth but it also at full song for long peroids). Spend your money on parts that make a combo instead of buying top quality parts that look great on paper but can't be supported by standard head, standard valves etc, that is the most important lesson I have learned from the knowledgeable folk here

[Nath 1,975]

I'll say one thing.https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=509iendKbO8All that with stock 200rods, ACL cast pistons and that engine has been together for near on 8 years before that skid in the same form.Think you are going to treat your engine harder than that - Go the forged bottom end.Apart from that - I have nothing to add.....

Fuck I love this forum haha.

[broken-wheel 659]

Ive seen the light and if its not boosted or blown it sits in a bag HAHA

 

Nitrous is where it's at, still get a cracking exhaust note, instant throttle response and instant 200hp when needed

[ando76 4,354]

Chemical supercharging - so cool its illegal - damn government

[broken-wheel 659]

very illegal, every 3rd car at PowerPlay had a bottle in the back

[ando76 4,354]

Yes cool for a closed event like that I suppose.  Me I prefer to make my power the hard way - Naturally aspirated.  Yes it takes brain power and a good handle on what make cylinder head flow - but once you master it - Gee its fun kicking arse aspo. 

 

I'm still going to play with boost on the delivery - just because.  Anyway back on track time.

 

Build in Nath-25. come on. 

[Nath 1,975]

Sorry guys, haven't had time to scratch my arse today. Only just got home 20 minutes ago.

 

Plan on ordering everything by the end of the week. Will do the specifics of everything tomorrow (day off).

[Outback Jack 6,352]

Heya Danger Mouse, Wagoon and Ando are dead on the money. An old saying is " Horsepower is only Limited by how much folding stuff your willing to spend, big horsepower never comes cheap."

 

It's my opinion you can make good reliable horsepower for a daily driver without breaking the bank or having shit hanging off it everywhere.

Naturally aspirated engines power comes from knowing how to make the engine work properly and flow.

Any twit can whack a snail or a blower on a mediocre engine and claim big horseys..... I can force feed a baby till it's fat too, it's the same thing.

Not saying some of those motors aren't  built well................. it's the easy way out.

 

Jack.

[Nath 1,975]

Right, suppose I'd better pull my finger out and actually post a full build, hopefully with part numbers and stuff. As usual while I have an ok knowledge of the basics, a lot of the more technical stuff goes right over my head, so any advice from you guys is greatly appreciated. If you think something needs to be changed I will do it.

 

Starting point is based off the advice everyone's been giving me so far. Not trying to re-invent the wheel or anything. Shooting for a full list of part numbers and stuff before the end of the week, so I can start ordering everything.

 

I'll keep updating this as I decide on specific parts. Especially for the bottom end stuff I'm not sure of the exact parts I'm ordering yet so I'll post what I can here and just keep updating this post based on what you guys tell me and what I can get a hold of.

 

Underlined stuff is what I have already at this point in time.

 

Bottom End/Head

- 4.1 EFI Block bored 50 thou, decked and line honed
- Full balance
- ARP rod bolts

- Standard 250 rods

- Rollermaster Double Row Timing Chain set ROCS3170

- 10:1 Comp Ratio

- Pistons to suit 250 rods, 50 thou* (Looking for exact ones - brand, part no. etc to suit the CR)

- Bearing Sets* (Could really use some help selecting the right sizes and stuff. Any suggestions would be mucho appreciado)

- New oil pump (standard one)

- 250 crank (Does this need to be machined in any way?)

 

- Camtech CT142 528(a) - 230 degrees @ 50 thou cam (This was what was originally suggested to me, and what I'll roll with unless anyone suggests something that they think would be better).

 

- EFI Head (has been reco'd in past apparently)

- Oversized valves fitted (already done on an EFI head right?)
- Heavy duty valve springs (aftermarket springs already fitted, win!)
- 5 angle valve grind

- Ported

- Machined for CR

- Anyone got a particular recommendation for head studs or gasket?

 

Intake and Exhaust

- Aussiespeed Intake Manifold (Can of worms, but better than redline? For 200 bucks extra I may as well.)

- Carby: Still undecided. Suggestions have been a 44mm IDF Weber or 500 Holley depending on the cam. Guys?

- Phenolic Spacers for the intake manifold, and possibly the carby if needed (already got one for the manifold, just figured I'd use it since it's there). Carby one will depend on any bonnet clearance issues.

- Unknown Brand 6-2-1 Extractors (got them with the engine). Slightly rusty for the "it was like that when I got it officer" look.

- 2.5inch exhaust system

 

Ignition

- MSD 6AL2 Programmable (already sitting on my desk!)

- New MSD Ignition Coil #8253

- Bosch Electronic Distributor to set base timing (will probably take the one from my 3.3 and clean it up).

 

Transmission/Diff/Other

- E Series 5 Speed with Exedy Clutch. All ready to go. (Been playing with the idea of a short shifter and some other superfluous stuff but that's low on the priority list for now)

- E Series Diff for the disc brake rear. Low priority for now.

- Heavy duty starter and alternator

- May upgrade the radiator. Currently using the ebay special which seems to work ok but I'd hate for this to be the undoing of the whole thing.

 

I'm sure I've forgotten something or stuffed up somewhere there. Let me know if I've missed something or something isn't needed and I should cut it away.

 

Still haven't finalised the cam and carb choice yet. Could also use some help selecting which bearing sets I need. Would be really handy if I could get a kit so I know it all matches up...

 

Oh, and most importantly: Black engine paint for stealth.

[broken-wheel 659]

 

Bottom End/Head

- 4.1 EFI Block bored 50 thou, decked and line honed

- Full balance

- ARP rod bolts

- Standard 250 rods

- 10:1 Comp Ratio

- Pistons to suit 250 rods, 50 thou* (Looking for exact ones - brand, part no. etc to suit the CR)

- Bearing Sets* (Could really use some help selecting the right sizes and stuff. Any suggestions would be mucho appreciado)

- New oil pump (standard one)

- 250 crank (Does this need to be machined in any way?)

 

- Camtech CT142 528(a) - 230 degrees @ 50 thou cam (This was what was originally suggested to me, and what I'll roll with unless anyone suggests something that they think would be better).

 

- EFI Head (has been reco'd in past apparently)

- Oversized valves fitted (already done on an EFI head right?)

- Heavy duty valve springs (aftermarket springs already fitted, win!)

- 3 angle valve grind

- Ported

- Milled for CR

 

 

Intake and Exhaust

- Aussiespeed Intake Manifold (Can of worms, but better than redline? For 200 bucks extra I may as well.)

- Carby: Still undecided. Suggestions have been a 44mm IDF Weber or 500 Holley depending on the cam. Guys?

- Phenolic Spacers for the intake manifold, and possibly the carby if needed (already got one for the manifold, just figured I'd use it since it's there). Carby one will depend on any bonnet clearance issues.

- Unknown Brand 6-2-1 Extractors (got them with the engine). Slightly rusty for the "it was like that when I got it officer" look.

- 2.5inch exhaust system

 

Ignition

- MSD 6AL2 Programmable (already sitting on my desk!)

- New MSD Ignition Coil (not exactly sure which one - any suggestions? Does it even matter that much?)

- Bosch Electronic Distributor to set base timing (will probably take the one from my 3.3 and clean it up).

 

Transmission/Diff/Other

- E Series 5 Speed with Exedy Clutch. All ready to go. (Been playing with the idea of a short shifter and some other superfluous stuff but that's low on the priority list for now)

- E Series Diff for the disc brake rear. Low priority for now.

- Heavy duty starter and alternator

- May upgrade the radiator. Currently using the ebay special which seems to work ok but I'd hate for this to be the undoing of the whole thing.

 

I'm sure I've forgotten something or stuffed up somewhere there. Let me know if I've missed something or something isn't needed and I should cut it away.

 

Still haven't finalised the cam and carb choice yet. Could also use some help selecting which bearing sets I need. Would be really handy if I could get a kit so I know it all matches up...

 

Oh, and most importantly: Black engine paint for stealth.

- Full balance

You will need to take the following to your balance guru:

crank, rods, rod bolts, pistons (fitted to rods), harmonic balancer, alternator pulley, flywheel and clutch

 

- 3 angle valve grind

5 Angle costs around the same makes more flows

 

- New MSD Ignition Coil (not exactly sure which one - any suggestions? Does it even matter that much?)

You'll want the PN# 8253 if you're going to daily it  or 8261 if you're running the 7

 

- Heavy duty starter and alternator

use the BF starter, fuckloads lighter, smaller  and better 

 

 

you're missing a few things like timing set and lifters and dizzy and arp sump studs (i can give you the part number for them)

[Nath 1,975]

Awesome, thanks. I was actually wondering how much of that I'd need to bring in.

 

I will keep that in mind about the valve grind. Edited.

 

PN# 8253 will be the coil I will grab then. Edited. Not a huge drama but it'd have been nice if I could get one the same shape as a stock one (that one seems wayyyy different). Trying to make stuff as inconspicuous as possible (even gonna modify a stock air cleaner to fit the carb). The MSD Universal Blaster one was what I was originally gonna get but no biggie.

 

I'll see if I can scrounge a BF starter, will it just bolt right up?

 

Good point about the timing set. Is a double row timing chain necessary or not for this motor? Also wasn't sure which particular lifters to grab either (I think it has a suggestion on the camtech website?)

 

Part numbers would be hugely helpful cheers mate.

[broken-wheel 659]

you can mount the PN# 8253 on the engine same as the stock with a bracket you can fab out of 3mm alloy, not hard if you can bend it and drill it, these coils can be mounted anywhere at any angle and they fucking rock, you can almost weld with them 

 

B series starter should mount right up

 

​I think double row is all you can get, get this when you get your cam and get your dizzy gear at the same time, also grab a HEI dizzy, i normally get Cam, timing gear and dizzy gear from same place you get your cam 

[Nath 1,975]

you can mount the PN# 8253 on the engine same as the stock with a bracket you can fab out of 3mm alloy, not hard if you can bend it and drill it, these coils can be mounted anywhere at any angle and they fucking rock, you can almost weld with them 

 

B series starter should mount right up

 

​I think double row is all you can get, get this when you get your cam and get your dizzy gear at the same time, also grab a HEI dizzy, i normally get Cam, timing gear and dizzy gear from same place you get your cam 

Sweet!

 

Is the distributor really necessary? My understanding of it was that you just gut the stock one, set the base and the MSD takes care of everything else.

[broken-wheel 659]

that's what I did but apparently the chopper wheel one I was using is not good, so I'm looking at a HEI one now. Can't find a re-bush kit for it thou to make the sucker work 

[wagoon 2,429]

You need to measure the cc of the combustion chamber on your head, then you can work out what dish piston you can use to get the correct comp ratio.

Use a kids medicine syringe with 1ml markings, grab a cd cover (your young do you know what that is ?!?) and make a hole in it so the syringe fits in the hole. Then place cd cover down on cylinder head and start filling chamber with liquid and keep track of how much you put in. When liquid is about to come out the hole stop and that is your cc volume. You need to make sure the cover is down tight on the head surface and also flat on the surface of the block. Can be done with other stuff instead of cd cover but must be flat and must have 1 filling hole.

[Nath 1,975]

You need to measure the cc of the combustion chamber on your head, then you can work out what dish piston you can use to get the correct comp ratio.

Use a kids medicine syringe with 1ml markings, grab a cd cover (your young do you know what that is ?!?) and make a hole in it so the syringe fits in the hole. Then place cd cover down on cylinder head and start filling chamber with liquid and keep track of how much you put in. When liquid is about to come out the hole stop and that is your cc volume. You need to make sure the cover is down tight on the head surface and also flat on the surface of the block. Can be done with other stuff instead of cd cover but must be flat and must have 1 filling hole.

 

That's some true backyard brilliance there. I will get on that first thing in the morning... Might be a little suss buying syringes in the middle of the night. I have a few CDs lying around... Eminem's Curtain Call should do the job

[Nath 1,975]

It's been a while since I've asked a stupid question so here's one: My understanding of exactly how to get the correct CR is a little fuzzy. I know it's a combination of different measurements and sizes of variable parts, but is there an actual formula for working it out?

 

And if there is, what order do you start selecting parts/machining stuff to get the right CR?

[wagoon 2,429]

I cant claim that idea as my own, I learnt it from here. Also cant help with compression ratio calculator but I do know things like if the piston reaches flush with block or sits down in the bore slightly will have a difference to comp. Also make sure that any porting you do is taken into account as removing meat will lower the comp. While these few things on their own wont add up to much, having a couple of things like that can take a bit out of actual comp. For example I know I have zero deck height, 42cc combustion chamber and 29 cc dish pistons with a valve relief. The chamber had a touch of work and the valve relief were both done after the above figures were measured so my comp worked out to be between 10.3 & 10.5 not a great deal of difference in comp but not that much was removed from the head and piston either

[Jiminy Kriket 133]

The distributor that came with that block is a stock XF TFI distributor. Should work straight up with your MSD unit. Was all in good working order before i stripped the car.