Crossflow Build Advice

[Nath 1,975]

Since I'm starting to gather parts for when the XD gets taken off the road, figured it might be a good time to start a thread here to ask all my retarded I-Haven't-done-this-before-please-unfuck-my-shit questions.

 

Would appreciate any points in the right direction I can get from you guys.

 

Anyway so, the point of this is, that I want to put a warm crossflow in, and I want to do as much of the work myself as I possibly can. Reason is mostly for simplicity, cheapness of parts (compared to clevo bits), and the fact that if I grenade the block or just generally make a mess of it, I can buy a new one cheap, transfer the bits and start again.

 

From what other guys have said, 200hp sounds like a good figure to shoot for. Any more than that I'm just gonna consider a bonus, but if there's stuff I can do for easy HP above that then I'll definitely do it.

 

My thinking is, I'd rather have bottom end and head work as a priority. Leaves me somewhere to go if I want to go chasing more power later on. Easier to buy better stuff to bolt on a good block than it is to rip it apart later on because all the good stuff is on there already.

 

If at all possible I'd like to use the original 3.3 block. I know it'd be a bit more work than doing a 250 initially, but it'd be nice to keep a matching numbers car. Would be a shame if I grenaded it but at the end of the day it probably doesn't matter that much other than it being a shame.

 

Having said that, if you guys reckon it'd be heaps less of a stuff around to start with a 4.1 then I'll definitely take it into account. I'm planning on picking up a  4.1 block for bits anyway so at the end of the day it doesn't make much difference.

 

Thought I might use a build Stumps suggested to me as a base. Turning the 3.3 into a 4.1 would be pretty sweet, could be a screamer with the 200 rods. So for now, this is the build, and if stuff changes I'll update it.

 

Block bored 60 thou, decked and line honed
Full balance
ARP rod bolts fitted

200ci Crossy Rods w/ 4.1 crank
New oil pump (not high volume, not needed)
Camtech CT142 528(a) - 230 degrees @ 50 thou cam
Comp ratio 10:1
Oversized valves fitted
Heavy duty valve springs
3 angle valve grind

Ported and polished head
Aussiespeed 2 barrel manifold
44mm IDF weber Carburetor with adapter
MSD 6AL2 programmable ignition
Pacemaker Headers and 2.5 inch exhaust

 

Other stuff:

Heavy duty alternator

E series thermo fans

T5 Manual box
3.23:1 or 3.45:1 LSD

 

 

Out of the stuff on that list, I've already lined up the manual conversion, a set of 6-3-1 extractors, and have the MSD ignition on my desk. Got an EFI alternator and starter (not sure if different starter) to handle the extra strain. Thermo fans are cheap and easy from the wreckers.

 

Manifold wise, Stumper's ported manifold with a spacer and a carby spacer is actually really good, but if an aussiespeed one is needed that's fine.

 

It was also suggested I might look into using an EFI head for the better valves and chambers (will buy an EFI spare motor if that's the case)

 

I know speed is just a question of money, but seeing as I have a fair bit of the gear already, I can splurge a bit more on the block itself. I may know someone who could hook me up with the machine work, so that's pretty sweet as well. Having said that I wouldn't want to go too far north of 4-5k on the engine (obviously less if I can get away with it but that's the limit).

 

What do you guys reckon?

 

Also if anyone has some recommended reading material about crossies, that'd be pretty good too.

 

I'm sure I left something out of that build... Can't think of what though.

[deankxf 20,262]

i'll just throw in a what if..

if it adds up to $5000....  if you had $5000 in your pocket, would you buy your XD with that combo or a BA XR6 (or something else of similar value)

only reason i mention this, is because its realistic. and i've done it several times.

[Nath 1,975]

I'd still take the XD. I've done everything else to it, may as well have a crack at hotting up the motor.

 

New cars are boring.

[deankxf 20,262]

newest car i have owned was an 1995 XG about 8yrs ago.. might be longer.
older cars definitely have more character

[Nath 1,975]

Give me a loud, bumpy, smokey, un-airconditioned boat I can tune with a screwdriver over some computerised box that drives itself any day.

[slydog 7,873]

Just do what Sean told you to do...

[steve mcqueen 1,796]

I still 100% stand by my earlier comments on a SOHC engine from an E series falcon.

You could do a DOHC conversion from a BA for money between 3k-5k.

Why bother with modding a crossy when a SOHC OR DOHC in stock form will do

the same.

[ando76 4,354]

I think Sean has nailed it.

 

There is a semi ported x-flow head and cam package for sale up here for $550.  Its a decent size crow hydraulic (770 grind) and it brand new and comes with new lifters.  The head has been touched up a bit and I reckon it would be great buying.  The same guy has a set of rockers to suit for another $300.  You wont find the cam in X-flow section of the crow site as it is a custom grind.  I've had a look at the cam figures and I like it. 

 

He is a customer of mine and I reckon he would take a bit less than those prices.  That is a pretty decent top end combo and stick for the money.  You could bolt that onto a stock low k bottom end with just a deck height reduction to zero and have a very tough engine for next to nothing.

 

Low k crossflows seem to be in abundance up here.  I picked up a 91 model XF ute the other day for a carton of Corona and it has 120,000 on the clock.  I also have another one here that has done 115,000. 

 

Fit a decent sump to these motors, modified oil pump and good intake and exhaust and you would be on the way to fun city for less that $2000. 

[ando76 4,354]

apart from that you could have a look at what I did to the block on the Mad Scientist engine and do the same.  Hmm must get back to actually building that engine as it is pretty close to what you are doing.   Maybe over the Easter break....

[tpak addict 1,909]

Makes me really think about doing my spare engine, 

Giving it a slap and tickle and putting it in the Lane......

 

Maybe after I do the EA2 ECU Conversion to run the EFI

[Nath 1,975]

Was actually Matt that came up with that build... Wouldn't mind having a chat to Sean when he comes back about it though.

 

Been following that Mad Scientiest build pretty keenly. Ando that's actually a really good idea. Would you have a link for that?

 

Steve you're right, it would be more practical, but if I was worried about practical I'd just buy a BA XR6 and send the XD to the wreckers. No offense to you or the other guys who do it, those builds will haul arse, but I've always found old cars with modern engines to be a bit un-inspiring. Kind of like fake tits. Yeah they're big and heaps of fun but it's just not the same.

 

That, and EFI is the devil.

[tpak addict 1,909]

 EFI is the devil.

 

Surely not 4.1 Xflow EFI.....Oh wait.... yeah your right

[wagoon 2,429]

Couple of things

Your going to need to find the pistons to make the 200 rod work, not that simple anymore as no one has stock of acl stuff when I was looking for standard 250 pistons and that was 9 months. Do you plan or revving the engine past 6500 for long peroids of time on a regular basis? Be honest as it will save you shit loads of money and frustration down the track.

Machining cost are the same for 200 250 mild or wild. The only thing is you dont need to go crazy on the supporting parts with a mild setup over a wild setup, but if you have to buy stuff you might as well spend the extra 20% and get the good stuff for later on down the track when you want to up the power.

[Nath 1,975]

Apparently there's some commo pistons that will work with machining, that might be the go if I can't find any of the ACL ones.

 

I've also heard you can use 265 hemi rods and custom pistons but that might be getting into the realm of crazy.

 

If I'm being honest, yeah I do like to put my foot down and hear it scream. Can't say I've ever been inclined to do it for long periods of time though.

[tpak addict 1,909]

Biturbo the baby 200.....

 

Boost down low and boost up high.....

[NZXD 2,328]

Biturbo the baby 200.....

 

Boost down low and boost up high.....

 

There was an EB/ED 4.0 once that used a set of twin turbos off a series 6 rx7, produced good hp and torque and moved along well.

[tpak addict 1,909]

Twin turbo is different to sequential turbo.....

 

1 small turbo spools early and then that bypasses to the larger turbo.... 

[NZXD 2,328]

Yeah mate I know that, however most will refer to it as twin, just cause there is two.

[slydog 7,873]

Apparently there's some commo pistons that will work with machining, that might be the go if I can't find any of the ACL ones.

 

I've also heard you can use 265 hemi rods and custom pistons but that might be getting into the realm of crazy.

 

If I'm being honest, yeah I do like to put my foot down and hear it scream. Can't say I've ever been inclined to do it for long periods of time though.

 

And now the stupid talk has started.This was dealt with many many many times and TBH no one has every done it or and never went fats if they did.There's a reason why all the fast xflow guys don't waste there money on any of that stuff. Then you need to bore the block like 180th then sleeve it to suit @ about $100 per sleeve and $400ish to bore it. Hemi rods will cost more then Scat H beams once found prepped and fitted with bolts and stuff and the commy pistons doesn't suit them.

 

If all you want to do is just talk engines then do that for sure but if you actually want to build a decent xflow DO NOT do what you wrote. Ask the guys on here and listen to what they say cos unlike other forums these guys have done it,still do it and actually want to help not waste your money.

 

Not meaning to be rude bud just saying what has happened about 20 times in the past and all thanks to Xrglen not Matt Lamb. 

[Nath 1,975]

Nah you're right, that's why I started this thread to begin with. You guys have done it all before.

 

I only mentioned it because I vaguely remembered seeing it written somewhere, wasn't sure if it was even a thing or not (clearly not now that I've seen that ).

Stumps was the one who mentioned the commodore pistons with 200 rods in my build thread ages ago but did say they'd require machining to make them work.

 

If it's going to be a huge fuck around to use the 200 rods then I'll cut that away but as long as I'm not chasing unicorns I'm happy to search for the right pistons.

 

If Ando can hook me up with that guy selling the worked head (fuck off unfamilia don't even think about it! ) then I'd say that'd be the go. If not then I'll get a spare EFI motor from JimmyKricket for the EFI head to start with.

[ando76 4,354]

The guy that is selling it has it on FB Speedway parts or something.  If you are serious I have his contact number as he is a customer.  I know that he is going up the dam for Easter so he will not be selling it over the break.

 

PM me after the Easter break and I'll hook you up.

 

Honestly all the talk of 200 rods for this engine is overkill.  Leave that for the drag and speedway guys.  For the street you want low down grunt and torque and the 250 rods create that it bucket loads. 

 

Gavin Fletcher's all conquering Q1 XF modified production hardly ever revs over 6000 rpm and is stupid fast.  Why - because of the torque.

 

use the strength of the these motors - get a good flowing head with a decent size stick - good induction - good exhaust and good spark and you cannot go wrong.

 

After Easter I will get the Mad Scientist X flow together.  It will make stupid grunt and decent HP and has been made out of left over stuff. 

 

That is the beauty of these engines.  There a plenty of good second hand parts that can be purchased cheaply and if you know what you are looking for and a careful in what you buy - you can make serious power for bugger all.

 

Buy everything new and change plans and paths and you will spend stupid money and probably go no better that the budget route. 

[wagoon 2,429]

I asked my question about revving cause it will change the whole build requirements of your engine. None of the following is meant to be rude, hostile and it is only what I have seen, read, heard or been told by people that have proved/done/tried/achieved certain levels of performance with the crossflow engine

If you plan on revving a crossflow past 6500 regularly you will benefit from ef crank, knife edge crank, 200 rod setup, oil gallery prep, full custom sump with windage tray and baffles and forged piston and rod setup(forged pistons and rods just happen to be the same as a 200 rod combo) Prepare to spend 8 grand on just the engine not including bolt ons.

If you plan on a street/race setup you will need standard 250 crank(deburred if you want to) standard 250 rod (ARP rod bolts for extra insurance or is your revving between 5000-6500 often) Standard 250 piston with dish to suit head to achieve desired compression ratio, sump with extra capacity for extra insurance and a windage tray cause it's free horsepower.

The cylinder head really comes down to how much money you have left/want to spend. Seat cut, valve seals, valve size and other normal serviceable items on the head will be covered by the machine shop. Porting will be on top of any head servicing but will help the engine immensely.

Take my solid roller cam build for example. I bought hypereutectic piston (block required resize of bore) that had valve reliefs placed in them, my machinist was happy to use the pistons @ 10.3-10.5 CR as I will not be revving over 6000 rpm (MSD 6al2 with rev cut), standard crank which required grinding, oil gallery ports that I cleaned/ported myself, custom sump with windage tray, standard rods which had done over 300 1/4 mile passes (@ at best of 11.5) with ARP rod bolts fitted that were fine, a cylinder head that I bought with some head work already done then had extra work done. Every bearing was replaced and a full gasket set supplied along with resized valves, brand new double valve springs with dampers, new seals, 5 angle seat cut , lightening and facing a standard flywheel and the full rotating assembly balanced from the harmonic balancer to the clutch pressure plate including rods, pistons and crank. All this was done for under $3600 ( I have scanned and put up the machining costs in another thread as I have nothing to hide as other have done which is very rare on other sites that claim lots and prove nothing)

Realistically you don't need the 200 rod combo as you are only planning to run a 2 barrel carby. There have been people that have run standard bottoms ends to 7000rpm and people that have used holden pistons machined etc but this is the exception to the rule. 9 out of 10 people will have an engine failure because they have over worked a certain part of the engine and the 1 person will be sitting back saying well it didn't happen to me so your all talking bullshit.

 

[Nath 1,975]

Quality posts as always guys.

 

From reading that I'll take your advice then. There's really no reason I need to flog it to 7 grand at all other than the wank factor. I was under the impression that it was more a case of, while it's apart I may as well make that upgrade. If it's going to be as much of a pain as you guys reckon then I won't bother with it.

 

I won't say it's not going to see 5 grand though, I already flog the 3.3 auto almost to that quite a bit to overtake stuff so I think the ARP rod bolts will be needed. I have the Programmable 6al2 anyway so I can set the limiter and not need to worry too much.

 

Budget build with decent second hand stuff I'm fine with. At the end of the day it's a first build and I don't want to attempt anything that's too crazy and is just gonna make life miserable trying to run right. If I could get away under 3.5 grand that would be pretty awesome but I'm not expecting that to happen. 5 is where I'm drawing the line in the sand though.

 

At the end of the day I just want something that will push me back in my seat a bit when I get on the loud pedal. Might run it down the quarter mile a few times for fun but I'm not chasing 10s. As long as it's quick enough to outrun hectic commies and can stand up to some mild abuse then I'm happy.

 

 

Ando - I'm definitely interested in buying that head. It sounds like it'll save me a fair bit of headache right off the bat. If it's all done and ready to just slap it on a bottom end that's pretty sweet. Postage might be the killer though but I think I might have a way around it. Will hit you up in a few days.

 

 

Carby selection I still haven't 100% decided on. I quite like the 34 ADM, the intake setup I got off Stumper is actually really good as well. If I could get away with re-jetting the ADM that might be the go. If I'm gonna require a new carby then so be it though. There's no reason is has to be a 2 barrel, I'm happy to roll with whatever will be optimal for the motor. Not quite ready to throw triple webers on it just yet though.

[wagoon 2,429]

Not ready for triple webber what are you a pussy?!?
Seriously though there isnt anything wrong with the setup you posted first up, and if you already had some of the parts it would be a waste to go in a different direction that will get you to the same destination. A 200 rod combo has very sound engineering behind it and will make for a better engine, but if a 250 rod setup will do it will save you a fair bit of coin. The pistons (supplied with rings) for my roller were $190 for the set but I added better rings so it cost a bit more, you may find a set of pistons to suit 200 rod but I doubt they would be as cheap as that.
I would not have my roller if Ando hadnt found my bargin head, but my head still cost me over $1500 including purchase. To make it suitable for mild setup would only see a change in valve springs and you wouldnt see a big difference in cost there. Thats why people say about going the extra mile cause in the end it doesnt cost that much more, but its up to you to say when enough is enough. Thats the hard part

[Nath 1,975]

Well, for the sake of planning lets say if I can find a set of pistons to suit the 200 rods, I'll buy them even if it costs a bit more.

If I can't find a set or they're way too expensive then I'll just roll with the 250 ones. Either way I have both sets of rods regardless so I guess it doesn't matter until the time comes to put everything together.

 

Put it this way, if the extra mile is the difference between 3000 and 3500 then yeah I'll do it. If the difference is 3000 and 7500 then probably not.

 

Not gonna lie, triple webers would be awesome but I have enough trouble getting one to run right haha.