Standard valve springs for cam break in

[wagoon 2,429]

North south setup has the carby primaries closer to 123 and the secondaries closer to 456, switch to an east west setup means that 123 has it's primary and secondary and 456 has it's own primary and secondary. This is a really simple explanation but you get the point. I think it will depend on how long your carby is as to whether it will fit.

Just a simple move of the carby closer to the motor when in a north south configuration saw Jason (TF250) gain 1 mph on the strip. So an east west conversion will make a big difference.

[slydog 7,873]

Looks like he has a Cortina so I'd suggest it will be fine as there no stru towers to worry about.Replace the spacer with the East West and watch the tune improve. Do you run a filter top air cleaner ? You could adapt one to suit your needs and trim the air cleaner filter height to suit your needs.  

 

I actually have 1 B/N I was going to post for sale along heaps of other stuff if you want to look at it ?

[ando76 4,354]

And when the bonnet comes off after race day the carby spacer and the conversion will have to be changed back as well. Then its a retune because the east west conversion makes such a difference I couldn't run the same tune...just saying

Yep. Welcome to the joys of racing. Just add it to the other 'pre-race' stuff you will have to do. Really it's only a couple of bolts and a jet change. Shouldn't take that much time... Lol. Think of the cold air benefits.

[LJDB 103]

I keen to give the conversion a go but I need to get the inlet spacer first. I run a large pod style filter on top of the holley that tapers to miss the bonnet bracing with a 1" open spacer. I did have a modified 3x14 drop base but with the aussiespeed manifold it sits alittle different and there wasn't a lot of clearance from the top and the choke tower. I may have also worked out my Rev limiter/ rpm issue. When I had the engine out I moved the msd and installed a kill switch on the earth wire. I also ran the power to main power at starter and earth to top starter bolt. Iv got voltage on the earth wire with the engine running and suspect it to get worse when it's working its ass of at revs. Il rewire it and take the kill switch out and recheck it. Its gonna be a warm one today so we'll so how I go.

[ando76 4,354]

When you buy the conversion kit it comes with a phenolic spacer and the alloy adapt plate. It ends up being around 1/2" in total. Hope that helps with working out whether it will fit.

 

It is very easy to make your own throttle bracket for a four barrel using factory bits. I'm sure Ryan posted up pics of his bracket on his thread.

 

I can tell you that the east west is a legitimate gain for these engines. I can give you the contact details of one of my customers who just fitted one to his x-flow, which is reasonably stock. He is really happy with it and it's an every day driver. Reckons he has better throttle response and is was saving fuel- until he started booting it cause it went better.

[LJDB 103]

1/2 isn't much so it might fit better depending where the choke tower sits. I ment the spacer between the head and inlet. Definately goes better before the heat really gets into it.

[LJDB 103]

Reworked the msd still no good. Pulled the tfi dizzy out and it's got shaft play. I'm not sure if it would be the cause as I cant see any marks on dizzy cap or dizzy wheel from it touching anything. It also doesn't spin smoothly by hand. Iv still got the module attached not really sure what it's function is though.

[ando76 4,354]

Rob has listed the wiring for the tfi without the module many times. I would not run one as it could cause issues.

 

Shaft play is not really s big issue with the Hall effect dizzys cause they won't touch anything and cause an issue like the xe dizzys

[broken-wheel 659]

i used the EST one that is apparently out of whack and never had an issue with it, I put the timing light on it and push it to 34 degrees then told the MSD to pull 10 degrees and the timing light shows 24 degrees ..... not sure what's going on there but i didn't use the module

 

EST has 3 wires, black red and green

 

run black to an earth, something like the dizzy nut or the engine block

green goes to the MSD white wire

 

if you still have the TFI here is the diagram for it

 

 

you can put black to ground, red to power and green to MSD white wire, all other wires you don't use

[LJDB 103]

Already done. I had everything here just never removed it as I never had a problem. I grabbed a est wiring plug ages ago from pick apart so all good. Also removed and cleaned the carb, found aheap of crap in the filter on the primary fuel bowl so maybe it was running out of fuel up top. I've got a a/f guage on it but it's been playing up lately so I don't know how accurate it's is but nothing shows up on it on test drives. Il give it ago tomorrow. I've richened up the jets so hopefully all is good

[matt_lamb_160 252]

Shaft movement will be an issue when oil spews into the dizzy at rpm! It can happen.

 

You will only have issues under real heavy load (real high compression when starting mainly) with the EST. TFI seems to be spot on, but I agree that leaving the outer module is just leaving something to fail.

[wagoon 2,429]

It is very easy to make your own throttle bracket for a four barrel using factory bits. I'm sure Ryan posted up pics of his bracket on his thread.

Dont think I did post anything on my bracket that I made. I still have to make the bracket for the second "saftey" spring.

Started with this factory bracket I removed from an xf engine.

 

As you can see it lines up with the throttle pickup on the carby pretty well. Not much room in there

 

And this is the bracket I came up with. Just cut off the end bent up a bit of 1mm sheet I had lying around putting bends in it to increase the strength, and used the screw in the manifold to anchor the bent arm. Spot welded the lower bent arm onto the factory bracket then just a quick fill with the welder around the sides to make it look a bit neater. Sprayed it with engine enamel satin balck so hopefully it won't mark or scratch as much. took me less than 30 minutes to make it

[LJDB 103]

Still no good with my rpm problem. Played around tonight after it cooled down and checked a couple of things. A/f gauges was reading rich at wot and plugs (another set) looked rich so I leaned it out abit. Car pulled better but still have the issue at revs. Its pretty consistent in 2nd gear at 5400. I set the limited at increments Until it played up just before 5500. It's abit hard to check in 3rd as the cars moving pretty quick. I turned the limiter right up to 9k so no chance of hitting it and tested. after 5500 it will clear slightly then just miss until I change gears (Corty rev tacho at 6 which is max).A couple of times on quick shift 2nd to 3rd in continued into 3rd then cleaned up. I played with timing but no change so I checked Fuel pressure. I've got just under 5psi at idle ( carter electric pump no return) and under load it drops to around 3psi. Could this be my problem. I tried slowly rising revs until 5500 but the car vibrates Afair bit and power wise it isn't noticable because it's not pulling. The only other thing I can think of is the valve springs which I had checked afew years ago when I first got the car and then they had 120 at installed and 320 at total lift of the other cam which was abit over .500. I also done a plug chop when playing up and plugs look ok.

[FORD_MAN 1,026]

Be interesting to see how the 510 cam goes is once tuned is sorted,

My xflow I'm building has the same cam & getting close to finishing,

[ando76 4,354]

I wouldn't think the valve springs are he issue with that installed pressures. Unless they were CROW units that have seen a bit of use. They tend to go off pretty quick in consistent high RPM applications in my experience.

 

Fuel pressure dropping to 3psi is not that good. I like to see a constant 6-6.5 psi with a Holley carb. Never more than that as it can cause issues with needle and seat and also flow problems. Pressure does not equal flow.

 

I experienced a similar rev limiter type issue in the race car many years ago and I eventually cured it by the high speed air bleeds. It was a consistent miss above 5500. Pulled couple of jet sizes out of it and it improved but it didn't go away until I fitted bigger high speed air bleeds. That leaned her out up top and she was as gd as gold.

 

Rob had a similar issue with his big x flow and it eventually traced back to a faulty coil.

 

Bit hard to diagnose over the internuts but there is a few things I would be looking at.

[slydog 7,873]

Correct Ando...even though the coil bench tested fine on the primary and secondary sides it would falter in service. And that was a $300 HVC coil.   

[Thom 6,651]

Still no good with my rpm problem. Played around tonight after it cooled down and checked a couple of things. A/f gauges was reading rich at wot and plugs (another set) looked rich so I leaned it out abit. Car pulled better but still have the issue at revs. Its pretty consistent in 2nd gear at 5400. I set the limited at increments Until it played up just before 5500. It's abit hard to check in 3rd as the cars moving pretty quick. I turned the limiter right up to 9k so no chance of hitting it and tested. after 5500 it will clear slightly then just miss until I change gears (Corty rev tacho at 6 which is max).A couple of times on quick shift 2nd to 3rd in continued into 3rd then cleaned up. I played with timing but no change so I checked Fuel pressure. I've got just under 5psi at idle ( carter electric pump no return) and under load it drops to around 3psi. Could this be my problem. I tried slowly rising revs until 5500 but the car vibrates Afair bit and power wise it isn't noticable because it's not pulling. The only other thing I can think of is the valve springs which I had checked afew years ago when I first got the car and then they had 120 at installed and 320 at total lift of the other cam which was abit over .500. I also done a plug chop when playing up and plugs look ok.

 

Not sure which msd you are running, does it have a dial to set the rpm limit or does it use the little pills to limit rpm? Had an issue with the first 6al in dad's a (it used the pills for rev limit) after about 4 years of service the rev limiter all of a sudden was 5700 no matter what limit it was set at unless it had no rpm pill in it, swapped to a 6al2 and never looked back (Dad gave the old msd to one of his mates he pulled it apart an found a dry solder joint, it's still going in his xp gasser ute)

[LJDB 103]

Ford man the cam make good power and I would be interested in other people opinions that have used it. I think I was just expecting larger increase than the old smaller cam which doesn't mean it's not any good. Once iv sorted it out maybe my impression will change. Also these issues I'm having probably don't help. The car never missed a beat before the cam change and went well.

Thanks ando ur a legend for your help and a wealth of knowledge. The springs are single clevo units. When I changed the valve springs to break in the cam I quickly checked my installed height with a set of calipers and it was over the recommended 1.800. Maybe the difference has lowered the installed pressures to much. I never had issues before I pulled the engine out and swapped cams so il have to backtrack and check everything also go over all the basics.The old cam signed off at 5500 but would still rev clean after.

[slydog 7,873]

(Dad gave the old msd to one of his mates he pulled it apart an found a dry solder joint, it's still going in his xp gasser ute)

 

I know that car. And old mate helped me @ the drags too. Top bloke.

 

Tweaking the car to get it right makes every issue seem worse than it is too so I do feel your pain.Just keep pluggin away and you will get it. 

[ando76 4,354]

Ok yes. If you have a higher installed height you reduce Spring pressure substantially. What are the springs rated. Installed height and poundage?

Did you check for bind? Probably not an issue with small lift tho.

Fuel can make it miss too much and to little

Electricity can make it miss at high rpm -coil - Hall effect- dodgy lead - dodgy plug.

Mechanical issue - coil bind, rockery geometry.

 

Ah the joys of it all. Oh and just because the car ran alright before, don't assume it should all be gd. Weird shit happens

[LJDB 103]

Ok I'm starting to get somewhere. The car goes heaps better and pulls harder didn't play up at 5400. I changed 3 things, 1st I changed the fuel line setup at the carb. I had 3/8 line going to a flat t piece under the manifold with lines going to each fuel bowl, changed to a y piece going to the bowls hoping for a change in pressure. I also re routed the spark plug leads, I remembered reading about spark scatter or something when looking into the msd. I ran the leads as individual as possible where before I had 123 together over the rocker cover and 456 together. And the 3rd and final I checked the valve spring installed heights 1.900 cam card says 1.800. When I had the springs checked ages ago for a different reason they checked at 1.800 -120 and total lift only -320@.500 I never checked spring installed heights back then I just assumed that was the norm. So this morning I rushed down to vpw and got some shims. I fitted .060 shims which brings the installed heights to around 1.840 which is still high. Checked bind which is still ok.

valves have ACL stamped on them but I can not find any info on acl valves

So can I add more than 1 shim to get closer to 1.800 or what do I need to do to get there.

If I change the springs and retainers will I still have 1.900?

I have multi groove collets can offset be used as well as a shim.

I'm not sure about the valves installed height but the car definitely goes heaps better. Runs a lot better in general more power through out rev range

[ando76 4,354]

The camshaft manufacturer recommends 125 & 298 which I would think would be plenty.  You should be bloody close to that with the .060 shim so I would leave it at that.

 

Really that cam is going to be out of puff by 5500 anyway, especially if the heads are reasonably stock.  What is your compression ratio?  How good are the heads?

 

Valves might be EVL.  They are pretty common valves.  Nothing wrong with them.  Perhaps it was just a combination of all those things you fixed, especially the possible electrical interference.

[LJDB 103]

Comp is 11.3 and it's a early unmarked carb head with hf2 marked on top. Machined down to 42cc chamber with general porting and clean up of the inlet, exhaust looks pretty standard. Standard valve sizes. Aussiespeed 4 barrel with 570 street avenger. I do have pics but can't work out how to upload them. I was going real well. Only went for a short drive but was still pulling strong with the limiter at 5700. Bumped it up to 6500 and didn't hit it but power was signing off and the miss would reappear. A/f was showing 12 at wot and plugs looked rich but I've put octane booster so it's a little hard to read they stay a browny orange colour. Still needs a good tune, has a big flat spot on accel.One thing I really notice the other cold night I could crank the timing right up nearly 40 without pinging but on previous warm days I would have to back it right off to blow 30. It currently set to 34. I enjoy playing around with the car so couple hours piss farting around or doing this twice for small gains or better understanding doesn't bother me in the slightest.

[gerg 10,871]

Is the flat spot just as the secondaries open, say at around 4500?

[slydog 7,873]

When you set the timing do you set it @ idle or 3000rpm ?

 

Most octane boosters are bad for tune and plugs. Nulon stuff seems to be the only 1 that works without issues.

 

Reading plugs is sometimes a little contradictory but if your burn signs are half way around the earth strap your heat rang is spot on.Then you move to richness seen on the top and sides of outer ring and detonation will be shown via signs of balling and or pitting in the area.You can't hear a stout xflow detonating up high but you can down low under load as it will rattle the bearings out of em  If the plugs are safe and good maybe try a heat range either side to look for a change.

 

Id like to see it with a East /West carb swap and TBH AFR's can be misleading as what research may tell you what is needed alot of the time the car wants something else. My ute like's to run around 12.5 to 12.8. Where as when we leaned it out to 13.5 it lost power on the dyno. Every car can be different.

 

Keep it up your knocking this over pretty easy ATM