CROSSFLOW extractors

[TF_250 398]

cleveland is to narrow and 460bb is to wide for a crossflow but at the time comp cams made removable tie bar lifters that had enough movement to fit the crossflow most other roller lifters are riveted and don't fit in a crosflow without cutting and welding the tie bar back together.

 

Push rods are basically do all the setup in the valve train then measure and order push rods, trend make them in 100's of different lengths.

[ando76 4,354]

wow - this just started to get a bit out of control - roller cam now - gee.  Glen's engine (in the XE) was a flat tappet. 

 

Your now talking serious $$$ if you are going roller.  Figure on $650+ for the roller cam billet - then you have to get the lifters.  You can spend good coin on them - $600 odd to $890(US) for the Isky Red Zones.  Then there is the mods to the block to fit them and on and on it goes.

 

You would want to have a decent cylinder head and be wanting to be willing to spend up big on the supportive gear to make all this work.  Remember these engines aren't like clevos, windsors and 350 Chevs where aftermarket parts are plentiful. 

 

Nearly everything on an engine of this level is custom.  Just ask Rob how many custom bits are in his roller cam engine just between the base of the sump and the sump gasket.   

 

I have a flat tappet crossy making 260+ at the tyres with a flat tappet and a cylinder head that was done 9 years ago on a budget and only flows 196cfm.  I can tell you the torque and power of that engine would be wild on the street. 

 

Don't get me wrong - I love roller cam crossy's but you have to be willing to spend good coin on them and all the supporting gear. 

[CHESTNUTXE 7,312]

so what roller lifters actualy fit ? or do you have to mod the comp cam ones ,is there really a huge difference in power between a big solid and roller cam ?Yeah i read a thread on here about the sump mods ect,,, very interesting,and the ef crank thing.

[ando76 4,354]

a roller makes power/torque sooner due to the nature of the camshaft profile - but at the end of the day if the cylinder head doesn't flow - neither cam will make power - pure and simple. 

 

If you have a cylinder head that rockets off the base, like from .100 to 300" lift and then just keeps accelerating through to .600" lift then a roller will make more power than a flat tappet with the same cylinder head. 

 

I am using Isky Red Zone Big block Ford lifters as they have a removable tie bar.  I think Rob is using Comp cams units and Jason has already mentioned what he used in his roller. 

[CHESTNUTXE 7,312]

ok good info,thanks,concerning crank and rod combo's,has anyone ever used the 221 c.i set up ,i have no idea's about rod length on this motor,just thought i would throw that one in for good measure?

[slydog 7,873]

Seems you need to do some research regarding combos and what you want plus $$$ willing to spend.

 

Theres some combos on here that explain what they use and why.

[gerg 10,871]

ok good info,thanks,concerning crank and rod combo's,has anyone ever used the 221 c.i set up ,i have no idea's about rod length on this motor,just thought i would throw that one in for good measure?

 

You'll be hard-pressed to find a 221 bottom end as only XWs had them. Would be a great compromise though, happier to rev.

[CHESTNUTXE 7,312]

i wonder did they have the same length rod as the 200 with just a longer stroke on the crank ? i remember throwing one in a metal recycle skip about 20 years ago lol i thought it was out of an xt falcon.

[Thom 6,651]

221 were a shorter deck height than 200/250, they have the same bore spacing and journal spacing but would require machining the block and crank to suit each other then you would possibly require a custom rod and piston combo

[slydog 7,873]

When first thinking about my combo the conciseness was a 20 cube de-stroke to make it 230 cubes in a effort to loose to harmonics from the engine and gain some RPM band by going well over size in the bore.  

[wagoon 2,429]

Has anyone ever gone all out on a 200ci, as in retained the stock 200 rods and stock piston height? I understand the 250 will give more torque but in a racecar wouldnt the extra rpm overcome that, or does harmonics still limit it?

[slydog 7,873]

Theres a big hp jump in the 50 cubes is the thought but TBH unless proven other wise it is just talk. Based on 253 vs 308 is not a fair comparison but no one builds 253s over 308 if you get my drift.

 

I think there's merit in the smaller 230 odd cubes and a really fat bore but thats me.

[ando76 4,354]

My good friend pogo tried the 200 cube motor in his burnout car.  The theory was that with the better bore stroke ratio - more revs could be had and in burnouts that means higher wheel speed which equal more smoke.

 

So he built up a 200 cube motor with a decent Tighe flat tappet, a c2 head etc etc.  It had decent comp and ran on avgas.

 

The thing would rpm like a trooper but if he hit a sticky bit on the pad - or it dropped revs for any reason it really struggled to get back on top.  It just didn't have the torque of the 250 - I thing which he freely admitted.  It was a bit of shame for him as it was a good theory and had merit but at the end of the day, it just didn't have the balls.

 

The motor went to a good home but - its sitting in my delivery with a turbo hanging off side.   Im only allowed to boost 200ci in the old girl so it was a good donor bottom end.  Just needs a different head and for me to start finishing off some of the thousand projects I have started.

[CHESTNUTXE 7,312]

I also remember seeing a crossy with 265 or 245 chrysler rods many years ago,i suppose people were doing this before the acl short piston  was available.

[wagoon 2,429]

Guessing pogo would have had fairly low diff gearing to keep tyre speed up?

It has got me thinking though in a different application and in a light car the 200ci might shine. If you could put it in a light enough car I think it would go alright. Cars like rear drive corolla's do alright with a little 4 banger that screams to 8 grand.

[slydog 7,873]

I also remember seeing a crossy with 265 or 245 chrysler rods many years ago,i suppose people were doing this before the acl short piston  was available.

 

No there just a stronger rod than the 250 or 200 rod but TBH I have not seen anyone brake a 250-200 rod via too much HP.They brake form hitting the camshaft which then makes both items try to just out side the block and that ends in...well tears TBH.  

[ando76 4,354]

yeah pogo had 4.3 gears in a hilux diff and even that was enough.

 

A wise man once said 'there is no replacement - for displacement'   - pretty simple really. You either get it from using 250 cubes or boring and sleeving and using o/s motorbike pistons or you add boost - either way - displacement rules.

 

Yeah the 200 spins but it lacks torque and if you want to build a screamer - just buy a V6 crapadore or an LS.  It will be way cheaper in the long run.

 

Most people just don't understand the level of modification it takes once you start spinning a crossflow past 5200.  The difference between that and 6200 is way more than double.  Don't believe me - try and build one that goes to 6200 for any great duration without any mods.  You will soon discover how easy it is to ventilate a crossflow block.

[gerg 10,871]

I sometimes giggle when newcomers quote how much horsepower they want out of their 250 crossy with just a bit of comp, cam, extractors and a holley. In the real world, if you're squeezing one horse per cube, that's really leaning on it (using stock-style bits). If I was still running one, I'd be happy to crack 200!

[PRO250 1,506]

Don't build boost, stock engine with a windmill. killer wasp and enough torque to rip a tree out of the ground and no revs so it will last forever

if id known what I know now my crossy would be doing 800hp not the 320ish I was NA there poo and you have to spend to much to make them hold together good while there going they just never last if your trying to rev them

a bloke at rocket said to me years ago when I was buying flywheel bolts "stop trying to rev it, boost and less revs" man how right that bloke was I should buy him a cookie
 

[Xelisty 366]

310rwhp stock engine at 16psi with double valve springs. And de-tuned above 4000 for reliability/t5 manual strength.

Yes the turbo does cost to fit but so reliable and simple.

 

 

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[slydog 7,873]

I agree a basic engine and turbo is easy but its still needs tuning and a fuel system,ignition,exhaust,driveline to match/suit the combo,which leeds us back to the same old constant of $$$ either way.And to do it RIGHT a boosted engine costs as much as a solid NAT ASP combo before turbo...Just saying.

 

Don't think I never thought about it...just wasn't for me as I didn't find it a challenge or interesting is all.When you have to run in the 9's now days before been considered fast with boost that takes alot more than a standard xflow and still needs big $$$ just saying.

 

Car's cost money if you want to go fast or slow.

[CHESTNUTXE 7,312]

where can you buy a turbo exhaust manifold for a crossy,and what would be the optimum turbo these days ? the xr 6 garrett ? ,ive done plenty reading on the original AIT set ups,ive also looked at the weiand 144 blower set up,and a 4/71 drive system.

[slydog 7,873]

eBay Gum tree 6Boost Tunnel Vision FB forums etc etc. I have seen a 144 equipped xflow run 13.2 @ 102 mph. Hardly tearing the track up ay ? When Jason got a hyd cammed 2 barrel NAT ASP xflow to run bottom 13's you can question why go the blower route or how the set up missed. I know the boys from Raw run 10's with a blown xflow in a bucket but it's a meth injected unit no where near street daily.  

 

Building a solid xflow is far from hard nor is it impossible but if you have to pay someone to do it for you the price will rise enormously unless you get someone like Ando to build it @ his shop. If not even a basic xflow will be a expensive exercise.Blowers turbo's all have many big hidden costs that still all add up so again you have to decide how much $$$ you want to spent and choose a path to go down and be prepared to spend the money or it will be a under achiever and you will be a sad boy.

 

So basically how do you want to spend and which option...

[ando76 4,354]

I sometimes giggle when newcomers quote how much horsepower they want out of their 250 crossy with just a bit of comp, cam, extractors and a holley. In the real world, if you're squeezing one horse per cube, that's really leaning on it (using stock-style bits). If I was still running one, I'd be happy to crack 200!

Yep.  when you get a ride in a crossy with 260+ at the tyres you know your living.  I could build that combo for the street (I am atm for a customer) and I can tell you it would wake a few people up.

 

When I first took Craig (my auto sparky) for a ride in the ute he was just gob smacked.  He owned a very tough turbo 202 holden in a rana back in the day so he knows a thing or two about torque.  he was amazed at how hard it hit. 

 

Boost or aspo - its not a cheap exercise - especially when compared to what can be achieved with an LS these days.  But the giant killing aspect of a hot crossflow can not be beat in my opinion.

[Xelisty 366]

Boost does cost plenty. My combo was $7500 just parts inc everything from turbo to Haltec ecu. Then a truck load of labour from the builder. I got the hole thing done and just got the car delivered all done and tuned.

 

 

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