slydog 7,873 Posted February 6, 2015 I have asked him to run 28 degrees locked already Matt but he claimed the issue still stood. But I do understand what your saying about aggressive curves. 16 degrees is ALOT of timing variance. I asked the dyno op to tighten mine up and put in more total and suprise suprise it cleaned it up and it started making power...till it went clunk lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt_lamb_160 252 Posted February 6, 2015 It sounds like fuel, but it does the same with a different carb? Does the car have an EST ECU? If it does, is it unplugged? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MattJeavons 7 Posted February 6, 2015 Yep - no EST - all through the MSD... Plugs are a touch white - but I haven't played with the carby yet - just whacked a set of 68's in there.....but again - nothing changed - so wasn't a priority yet. Will change the PV back to a 65 and potentially jet it up a bit.... Check the installed height - spot on....but as you can see - on full lift - they aren't binding. Attached is also a piccy of the pushrod I'm using - currently the ball end is on the lifter side - wondering if I have that the wrong way round.... In terms of fuel side - new pump / filters etc - the only thing I'm unsure about is the additional filter going into the bowl that sits inside the speedflow fuel line.....but can't imagine that should be stuffing me up... Cheers lads! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tpak addict 1,909 Posted February 6, 2015 I'm still going with a spark cutout/rev limit set too low.... there are 3 that can be set on the MSD according to their webside...... 1 slydog reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted February 6, 2015 Sorry Matt my bad - it was Friday arvo and it has been a tough week. That plug tells me that the heat range is well off. It needs a set of 6s and possibly 7s in there as that is way hot. I have seen those small filters after the pump cause issues with fuel pressure at revs. I had a good quality Petersen unit in line after my big mechanical pump on the race car and it caused a pressure drop at revs - despite being -8 inlet and outlet. I removed it and instantly solved the fuel pressure issue. If that valve is at full lift then you definitely don't have coil bind. I would remove the filter if it was on for both carbs just to rule that out. Tpak addict - They do have 3 rev limits but only one is controlled by the actual run retard. The boost retard and burnout limits have to be activated by a 12v power source - meaning you have to actually switch them on. You can set them in the "tree" section of programme but without them being connected to a power source (by the pink or blue activation wires from memory) they will not function. It is good practice to set them higher than your Max Rev limit even if you don't intend to use - just in case someone wires your MSD incorrectly. 1 gerg reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MattJeavons 7 Posted February 6, 2015 No stress Ando - run my own business and was having a shocker of a week lol Then spending nights trying to fix this for the drags tonight has made for a long week!! What has been weird is I've run colder plugs before - 6's and 7's - and there weren't fouling but def black just cruising around - this is my daily drive and I regulary sit on the highway and around town on cruise... Was wondering if that filter could cause an issue - it is a common thread - already have a normal inline filter with this in the bowl - i'll take it out this morning. After taking the cover off - was happy to see I'm a long way from bind - those springs are good to .6" lift from memory - with the pushrods - any advice - one has a rounded off type ball end - I've had this into the lifter - wondering if it should be the other way around? Tpak - yes - 3 rev limiters but as Ando has said - need 12v switch to operate the burnout/retards - not running either of those - just the overall limiter - had it set to 6k just to rule it out.... Thanks again lads!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MattJeavons 7 Posted February 6, 2015 Either way - i'll grab a set of 7's today and remove the fuel filter in the bowl - see how that goes.....3pm we hit the road but I'm also on kid duties - just hoping I can get the old girl to roar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted February 6, 2015 Yeah they may foul on cruise but its when you are up it that they will work to their best. why not just chuck the 7s in at the track if you find the issue is not the plugs. I'm really suspect on the inline filter, especially if it is a mechanical pump. I would be removing any filter after the mechanical pump as they really are not needed if there is a good filter before the mechanical pump. I say this because the mechanical pumps do not make metal like an electric pump does. It could very well be running out of fuel at those revs - not filling the bowl fast enough and that's why it does it with or without lor ad but I reckon it would be worse with load. Stranger things have happened. Did you raise your engine 10mm to clear the drag link at the back of the sump and lower the sway bar to fit that crossy into the early bird? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MattJeavons 7 Posted February 6, 2015 Yeah - fair enough - would make sense - def no need for an additional filter. Just feeding the rug rats now then i'll slip out to the shed and rip it out .... Yep - the engine is raised to cover clearance - this was how I bought the car 5 odd years ago - thought about converting to a 302 but after I blew the first motor up - I already had this one half built on the side so stuck with the crossy - nice easy motor to work on and a good learning curve and had plenty of spares available - hence the 200 rod combo ; had only previously played with Harleys for years - this the first car I'd owned for a long time lol Only had the chance to get my C4 built just before xmas - so running that now with a 2200 stall - sweet to cruise around with and solid off the mark (even though the diff is 3:23's) but last trip to the track was only running mid 15's - that's when I discovered this rev problem - missing out on a good 1000 of RPM - think that might help the times lol 3 Thom, gerg and ando76 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted February 7, 2015 Nice - I just got home from putting a 302 C4 into an XL four door. Way easier than a crossflow, went in with engine and gearbox connected - try doing that with an I6!!! I'm sure we will get on top of it. Where about are you in Qld? I'll be down in Brisbane in a month or so to tune Ryan's wild roller crossy. 1 wagoon reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wagoon 2,429 Posted February 7, 2015 I'll be down in Brisbane in a month or so to tune Ryan's wild roller crossy. Really?? Awesome!! I best be pulling my finger out then Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MattJeavons 7 Posted February 7, 2015 I bloody bet - a 302 would be a nice fit - the bloody crossy is a touch long for the XP.....have to run the thermo on the front for clearance!! Live in Narangba - bout 40mins north of brissy city.. Well went out to the drags - here is the update! Took the fuel filter out of the bowl (still got the usual inline job before the pump) and dropped in a set of BP7ES plugs..... Runs as rich as hell on idle - struggles to start without opening the throttle a bit - loads of smoke out the back - but once she gets going - no worries - not sure if I need to jet it down and too late to rip a plug out until tomorrow and check the colour.... Considering the float hasn't been touched - thinking time to lower the jets. In saying that - problem still stood - anywhere between 4,000-4500 it starts coughing. But - did run a new PB - this same motor combo - short of carby changes/timing tweeks etc - started at mid 16's - went to mid 15's 3 weeks ago with the new C4 and higher stall - and tonight with the holley 500 on it running rich - went to 14.5 - all I have to do is get these extra revs and I'm hoping to slip it into the 13's... While I was do the changes today - took a compression test - each cylinder rated between 200-220 psi.....a set of anti-pump up lifters lob Monday which was a shame - would have loved to have trialled that tonight. Also took the dizzy cap off - heats of white junk on the terminals - and you can see scorch marks across each cylinders internal tab - from half way to the edge - button was good through....going to change cap/rotor anyways. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted February 7, 2015 And again I say take it to Marty @ John White Racing in Narangba...the fastest nat asp xflow in the country comes from Marty's workshop. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MattJeavons 7 Posted February 7, 2015 G'day Sly - thats exactly where it will be going in a few weeks - wanted one last crack at trying to solve the prob and last night was the chance to try a few things on the track. Short of these lifters coming on monday changing the game - off she goes!!! At least running mid 14's seemed more respectable - but as always - it's never fast enough.... Nice when you can at least cross the line 1st for once lol 1 slydog reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted February 7, 2015 Ok well you could address the idle being rich with the idle mixture screws and while you are there hook up a vacuum gauge and check what vacuum you have at idle. You can tune the idle mixture with a vacuum gauge if you do not have an AFR gauge in the car. Sounds like a new cap might help as well and get a new rotor. Beware of the cheap Italian made caps and rotors going around - they are not soo good. You could be getting fuel imbalance at those revs because of the uneven runner fill that goes with those manifolds. This would be particularly worse if jetting was on the rich side. The only way to do a plug read is to go out and run it flat out through the gears and shut it off and then pull the plugs and read them. The engine can not be let idle or slow to a stop as this will give a false reading. I would be checking that the high speed air bleeds (the small inside bleeds in the venturi) are not blocked - but I doubt it because the problem was the same with the 350 and the 500. As Rob said - Marty is right near you and he is a jet. If you can not sort it yourself he is the man. But really I would not be taking it to him until you have run out these basics, otherwise you are paying an hourly rate for stuff that you can easily do yourself. I strongly suggest you start a list of things that you have tried to rectify the issue and the results - in order that you have done them as this will be a big help to anyone that you take the car to. At least it is getting faster. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted February 8, 2015 I suggest you take it to Marty...problem solved. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MattJeavons 7 Posted February 8, 2015 G'day lads - checked the vacuum readings - was at 1.5 turns out on the IM screw - 10 vac ; changed to 0.75 turns out and vac went back to 15 which is what it was before - turns over way easier than last night!! Slydog - don't take my lack on interest in rushing off to Marty as a negative - as Ando said - I'm trying to eliminate anything obvious before taking it to someone to get something obvious pointed out...... Once I've got what I think is a solid list of issues ; changes made etc - I'm off to Marty for sure - that way there won't be any reinventing of the wheel in regards to what has already been done. Spent the day pool fencing with the neighbours - so no work on the old girl tonight - new lifters should arrive tomorrow - will whack those in during the week - then if the problem is still there - I'm confident I've done anything I can - hoping Marty can point me in the right direction then - really hoping to crack the mid 13's - that way I can give my cousin - with a bloody holden LS1 - a run for his money lol 1 Outback Jack reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted February 8, 2015 Well Ando doesn't know you asked this over on AFF aswell...and maybe FB ? To me taking it to a actual shop that can touch drive listen chat to you about it would be a viable option and TBH maybe even save some coin as it can save you chasing your tail as you have tried a bit now. We have all been there from time to time. I can't guarantee Marty will be able to fix it either but he knows ALOT more then anyone on here doe's and he has the benefit of been where the car is. Personally I'd back him in but... Either way good luck with whatever you do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MattJeavons 7 Posted February 8, 2015 Yep - I did ask this over in AFF - not sure what FB is - and I agree - a good shop tuner maybe able to fix my problem and save me chasing bugs.... However - exactly as you have said here - Marty may or may not be able to fix my problem ; experience should say he would probably be on the money - however there is no guarantee. My neighbor uses another dyno/tuner that he swears by - But as I said in AFF - this is part of the fun of it for me - and I was hoping to get some advice on the forums from anyone else that may have experienced the same thing....rather than just get pointed in the direction of paying someone to do it - which again - as I said - the money has and never will be the driving factor - I honestly was trying to get ideas from anyone who may have had similar problems....and try and fix it myself.....and if not - no worries. Or - start a thread that if anyone else out there may have the same thing - they can read and get advice - maybe I'm off track here - but I thought that's what this was all about - ppl sharing knowledge. Sorry if I am sounding a little pissed off - but I was never hoping for a miracle cure - or expecting one - just advice from others with experience that could potentially point me in the right direction or share ideas on possibilities without having to go to a shop and see someone I don't know and/or trust to not get ripped off. Maybe its been a long bloody weekend and the JD is talking....but I've read ton's of posts over the years that have been more than helpful and others not so much - as you can see from my post count - I'm not a big poster - but getting smart arsed replies like the above is the reason I have never bothered and after seeing many others get shot down in flames for maybe asking a stupid question....I can't be farked.....if that wasn't the intent - no worries - but either way - the fun has been sucked out of this.... Call this thread closed - I apologise for anyone trying to help! 2 Outback Jack and Mixalis reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted February 8, 2015 And there's the whole problem you don't realize when someone is actually trying to help you via "the internet" as it doesn't show people's real meanings. Seeing as I have tried on both sites I fail to see how I was been anything but helpful. If I was been a smart ass I would have said "yes keep going,your so close and your gunna get with the next tweak and I can't believe how fast your car is". Take it how you want but I know where my intentions where pointed and you have me the wrong way and I will never apologize for for something I havn't done. Like I said before I sincerely hope it gets fixed cos having a car thats not happy makes the owner not happy,good luck. 1 tpak addict reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outback Jack 6,352 Posted February 8, 2015 Don't close ya thread Matt, there is nothing wrong with doing it yourself, and there is nothing wrong with asking questions........ on as many farkin forums as you like. As long as your not making it worse, it's how we learn. I'd like to see ya get ya crossy running without spending a squid load,............. it's Australia, we have a crack at it first before we give up. LOL Theres plenty of people here to help you. Jack. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted February 8, 2015 I think everyone needs to just take a breath and back it off a touch. Please don't give up on this thread Matt because - not only is it helping you - but it is helping me. I like to keep my brain active and try and think if what could be causing issues and come up with suggestions. It helps us all. Marty will no doubt solve it but what happens if he unexpectedly passes? Believe me this can and does happen. When GT died - he took with him some great knowledge and I am forever lost to that knowledge. Blokes like Kev Wyatt and Marty are in the same league but what happens when they pass? Someone needs to know how to fix these old beasts and their issues. Both Marty and Kev didn't get to where they are without heaps of experience with issues just like this. The times are a changing and 'internet forums' like this are a valuable way of us all sharing our knowledge and building on our own so that in the future we will have something to pass onto the next generation and not take all our wisdom to the grave. Keep asking the questions and if we can't solve it - then take it to Marty and then share his wisdom. It all helps. He shouldn't have an issue with sharing this kind of information. 2 Outback Jack and matt_lamb_160 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Xelisty 366 Posted February 9, 2015 I'm interested too. I want to make more power above 4000 so interested to see the issue. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Outback Jack reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted February 9, 2015 Xelisty...each combo is specific it what it has runs and needs. If you run a something like this set up I'd suggest you need more cam shaft with more lift,more exhaust and a good collector,more induction and a really good ignition. Never heard anyone complain about going to a basic and cheap Street fire + TFI dizzy combo except Ando yet. Really can't expect to make power above or beyond the 4500-4700 like Garth has already stated as he uses the same cam and a similar combo so reving it or wanting it to rev harder is not going to make it faster in this case. Mine rev's to like 7500 and makes it peaks well below that but I use the RPM to my advantage via convertor,torque,exhaust (the exhaust keeps the power coming in for longer) induction and gearing for my use. It's all relative to use...can't expect a pony to outrun a qtr-horse if you get my drift. But TBH all the info you want is already on the forums and or you can ask guys for help. Stumpers DIY thread is a prime example. Just saying Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted February 9, 2015 Nothing wrong with locked timing and TFI - Street fire set up if you are on a budget and buying stuff second hand. If you are buying new then save a few extra sheckles and get the programmable for a happier car. Horses for courses. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
