Crossflow mild build, need advice

[wagoon 2,429]

Not meaning to be rude but I think you need to find a new machine shop. A couple of months ago I had my block rebored and honed, new pistons with better rings, every bearing new including cam bearings, valve reliefs machined in the piston, crank ground then linished, full reco and assembled head with new double valve spring with damper, resize of oversize valves, resize seats to take oversize valves, full gasket set, fully balanced engine from harmonic balancer to clutch pressure plate, lightened and machined flywheel for just under $2000. I supplied the oversize valves, flywheel, clutch pressure plate, and harmonic balancer otherwise all other parts were supplied by the machine shop and I paid retail prices for everything.

[Clevo120Y 815]

I need a machinist like yours mate hahaha, no way I could get all that machining let alone balancing done for that money.

[PRO250 1,506]

I need your machine shop to. They rape you here as well, it was $400 just to do my rods for the white car I fell over he said its cause he fitted the rod bolts. I laughed and said you push the bolts out to resize them do I look stupid or something

He charged over $100 just to open the rod bolt packet LOL

[wagoon 2,429]

Well if the price is that good I probably have it wrong.

I do have a receipt in email that I checked and for pretty much the same as listed above but without pistons and valve spring and its $1600ish. I know the pistons where just over $200 not sure on the valve springs.

[PRO250 1,506]

The last head I just droped off as a bare head and valves springs retainers supplyed and they did the rest was $1000 that's 12 guides seats recut machined for screw in studs and milled

That's like 40 bucks a guide 15 bucks a seat and valve as they where multi angle not a single 45 they where standed, and like 160 bucks to mill it

the head was outsorced for studs and I payed him on top of that

maybe theres more to buiding a head then I know, but ive done a few and I must be skiping the extra steps LOL 

[matt_lamb_160 252]

...

[wagoon 2,429]

Now Im really worried I fucked up. Ah well shit happens, will know when I get home

[wagoon 2,429]

As expected I was wrong. But hey I only got one number wrong, it just happened to be the first number. So to clear thing up here ya go

 

[Clevo120Y 815]

Yeah they are all fair prices there, the balance is a great price.

extras that normally people have to pay that add up that you haven't had done is :  valve guide replacement, cylinder head facing on 3sides, seat inserts replaced and seats cut, refacing valves and backcut. Your block didn't get any machining except a hone in the bores so other costs are normally at least a deck face then line honing of the crank and cam tunnel, your crank only had the big ends done but not the mains, you didn't get new rod bolts done either, no head bolts there or oil pump etc etc.

All these things add up and more so if you have to have the head repaired like welding in the water galleries then refaced, have the chambers cc'd for even compression.

Don't be shocked if you have to spend $5000 on parts and machining then around $1000 for someone to PROPERLY assemble it so it lasts and can handle a flogging.

It's funny because when I port a head I charge about $600 to disassemble and inspect a head, work out the port sizes for the combination and grind the ports, before and after flow testing and then reassemble the head, this takes me at least 4 days. then the machinist charges $1000/$1500 to do the rest of the work which takes half a day, new inserts, seat cuts, facing, guides and valve grinds. LOL people think I'm making heaps out of it but I make less than a normal wage but I do it for the love and to see people go faster!!!

[wagoon 2,429]

My head had standard size valves when I took it in and came out with 1.84 inlet and 1.56 exhaust, and the seat has a 5 angle cut on it now   The bore was taken out to 40thou from 30 thou with associated machining. The rod bolts were already ARP and the crank only needed the big ends done to remove some light cracks after inspection.  You are defiantly right in that prices do add up quickly, that's why I thought I would throw up the pic. The quote I mentioned in post 29 really was only for $1600ish.

The one thing that is not show but which cost the most was the hand porting to the combustion chambers and runners.

[Clevo120Y 815]

Hope I didn't offend Ryan, wasn't my intention just wanted to point out to others the extras on top of what you paid for that can be charged if extra work was required, your base engine was in reasonable condition to start with by the sounds of it.

Cheers

[Clevo120Y 815]

What did the porting cost if you don't mind sharing

[ando76 4,354]

The price Ryan paid for his porting is not actually what a normal port job would be so it is probably not fair to say.  Ryan got a heavily discounted rate as he was a customer of mine. 

 

Your rates are more than fair Sean and if anyone on here wants a proper port job, they could do no better than use your service.  Not blowing wind up your arse but the reality is finding someone who is;

 

a. interested in hand porting a dinosaur engine cylinder head

b. knows what they are doing with that particular head to make it work

c. uses that knowledge and equipment at hand to make real differences to flow

d. provides evidence of improvements

e. backs their product and will be around if/when repairs of improvements are needed and

f.  does it at a decent rate,

is very rare these days.  Sure you could buy a CHI/ Barbagello CNC ported head but if you want something tailored to a particular package, people like yourself and a few others are hard to beat. 

 

What the machining costs etc show is that if you want to make money - Don't be an engine builder or cylinder head porter - you will go broke.  Lucky we do it because we love it.

[wagoon 2,429]

Stumper no offence taken at all, I myself was just clearing up what the above list doesnt detail. Sorry if it came across as defensive. You are 100% correct in that you look at a list like I posted and it doesnt show everything that wasnt needed, and yes I was very lucky to get an engine that really didnt that much done to it. I personally think its a credit to the previous owner that he ran it for so many years and it was in such good condition.

In regards to the porting, I agree with Ando but for slightly different reasons. When I bought the cylinder head it already had quite a bit work done to it. So the work that was done was really only customising the head to my camshaft. So my flow figures actually show more the skill of the person doing the porting in tailoring the head rather that peak flow fugures.

[XFChris 126]

A lot of learning done in this thread!

 

So I've modified my plan a little bit

4.1 84DA block with fresh rings+ bearings + gaskets, I will try to get hold of an EF/EL crank and have a machinist get them to work together

EFI pistons to help up compression

Comp ratio between 10:1 to 11:1

Reco C2 head, new pushrods, port matched and valve work to suit the cam. Turns out the spare head is a C2

Mild cam, either the Camtech CT142 503B-110(a), or Crow 14776 which is 204@50thou IN and 214@50thou EX. Or speak to a cam grinder to make a cam using the best attributes of the aforementioned cams.

EFI manifold

IMPCO 225 mixer, B2 convertor OR BLOS mixer, OMVL convertor

TFI Dizzy with MSD 6AL2 and MSD Blaster SS Coil

Upgrade from XF T5 to EF/L T5 Taller 5th apparently, and stronger box overall

Upgrade from 2.77 diff to 3.23 or 3.45 leaf spring diff from E series

Extractors with 2.25" exhaust Already on the car

 

I'd assume that I would need new pushrods, and valve springs in addition to the above. Are the conrods fine to reuse if they are in good shape?

[PRO250 1,506]

Its the 86da block you want to run the EF crankshaft

but in saying that there is no real point in running a 12 counter weight crank in a engine that will not rev there is just no point I may be a smoother engine but its lot of crank to get spining in a engine that will not rev over 4800rpm

CC your head and work you compresstion ratio out before getting pistsons ive just done a engine with 15cc pistons and it had well in the 11s in comp it was way higher then I thort it would have been  but I had a head I wanted to use so I had to run with it


 

[wagoon 2,429]

Agree with Pro on the ef crank. Changing to a ef crank is really only done for applications where you are running constant high RPMs (5500 and over) like speedway, burnout cars etc. The ef crank weights a LOT more than a crossflow.

Rods are fine to reuse but check rod bolts. People change to ARP rod bolts if the engine is going to see rpms. The standard ones are fine but if the motor has seen some abuse just check the.

Just to give you an idea on how good the standard parts are, that list of machining that I posted is for my solid roller cam crossflow that I am using standard rods with ARP bolts and standard crank in.

The size cam you pick dictates the parts needed. And the ones you listed will run out of puff before 5000 rpm, so no need to go full race setup.

[ando76 4,354]

Yep - ditch the fully counterweighted crank idea and save the coin for proper valve springs (isky) not the crap that crow sell and you are well on your way. 

[wagoon 2,429]

I will add my solid roller cam engine was good for 350 hp and mid 11 second passes before I bought it. That was with standard rods and standard crank.

[Clevo120Y 815]

Don't use crow springs, half a season of racing and the crows went soft, set at 110lbs they were 85lbs when I tested them again, crap crap crap don't use them.

[TUFE 284]

Don't use crow springs, half a season of racing and the crows went soft, set at 110lbs they were 85lbs when I tested them again, crap crap crap don't use them.

Have you got a part no. handy of a better spring to suit the 250? Ive got a feeling my crow springs have softened.

[Lord_fahrquhar 2,580]

Don't knock the xf t5 it has a lower first and I haven't fucked mine yet. And it's got about 260k on it.

 

Doesn't have some other niceties but they're cheap as piss these days.

 

My brother has two in the shed lol

[slydog 7,873]

Have you got a part no. handy of a better spring to suit the 250? Ive got a feeling my crow springs have softened.

 

This is the thing about a "mild" engine build...to do it properly costs the same as to make it a screamer. Thing about a xflow is they take bigger than what people think to work. Bigger carb bigger cam more compression more timing...they just have a stigma about been a 6cyl so you shouldn't put too much in it for some reason ? 

[Clevo120Y 815]

Crow 7738-12 ?? Off the top of my head, single spring with damper 110lbs seat pressure.

[Clevo120Y 815]

I'm using the isky 235d springs now, recommended by Ando and I will test them at the end of the season, to use the isky with 3 groove valves you have to machine your retainers to suit the inside and outside diameter, also use the locators specific for the isky springs as well.