My Clevo build - Thoughts

[fxd351 5]

Wow..Just caught up on the entire thread and sounds very interesting.

 

I have to say your combination of engine parts is virtually the same as what I am running in my 351 XD.  Definitely same Comp Cam, MSD ignition, open camber 2V heads and even the four into one pacemakers.  From memory it was putting out approximately 400+ HP.  Idles great, draws plenty of attention and pulls from down low.

 

Unfortunately I destroyed a big end bearing.  Engine out to assess the damage.  Crank suffered badly and could not be saved.  Managed to source another 4MAB crank (originated from the states) and that's currently being freshened up.  I was contemplating replacing the camshaft, but from what I've read here think I'll stick with it.

 

Didn't realise at the time, but I had a high volume oil pump in the car...ouch.  I've already got a new standard volume one to install.  Could have sworn blue I had a standard one, but HV it was

 

Obviously the Cleveland is known for its oil flow/pressure problems.  I'm interested to find out a little more as to why you are running a fuel line from the oil filter to the rear gauge? 

[ando76 4,354]

Thanks mate - good to hear your combo worked well. 

 

The braided line running to the rear oil pressure sender location is to pump pressurised oil into the rear of the engine.  Instead of the rear bearings having to wait for the oil to travel the whole way through the engine, they are pressure fed directly off the oil pump.

Helps with oil pressure.

 

When you push them in stock form, I am not surprised that they have oil pressure issues.  They have a very poor oil return system - worse than a crossflow - and a very poor sump.  I put a fair bit of time into improving all the oil galleries and return galleries to try and get on top of this.  I also have a 7.5l sump to build for it, and the canton windage tray already.  Although this car will primarily be a Sunday cruiser it WILL be flogged at Street Sprint type meets, so the oiling system has to be up to the job.

 

The curse of the high volume oil pump strikes again. 

[gerg 10,871]

I can vouch for the shitness of the oil system. On assembly I noticed there are only two holes in each head for oil drainback and three in the lifter valley. The stock capacity is only 4.5 litres or so and I noticed that the oil only needs to be down a litre or so before starvation is a problem.

 

I saw it mostly coming off a freeway and rounding a bend at the end of the exit ramp. Gauge drops to zero for a few seconds then recovers.

 

Freeway cruising in 4th with 3.27 diff gave 2700 rpm, enough to pump all the oil up to the top end and starve the pump.

[broken-wheel 659]

Or any Honda car ever made... VTEC or not. Dead and characterless unless they're screaming their tits off.

 

I actually own a DC2 and I think you're very very wrong there, the DC2 is a sweet little car, it's docile and so smooth around town with amazing fuel economy but turn it over 5000 and the thing comes alive in your hands, I'm doing a lot of Mnt Nebo runs in this thing and it's simply astounding how good it is and how it keeps up with the rest of the PF crew, the twister the mountain roads the bigger the rewards, no falcon will ever beat it up and down the mountain... PERIOD

 

Steering is sharp, chassis is amazing for a 15 year old car, motor is probably one of the sweetest 4 pots japan ever produced, brakes are nice and progressive and endless...dude you need to drive one! the B18cX motor is fucking amazing piece of engineering

 

and nice to see another clevo being built! i need to start building mine soon as well

[broken-wheel 659]

Thanks mate - good to hear your combo worked well. 

 

The braided line running to the rear oil pressure sender location is to pump pressurised oil into the rear of the engine.  Instead of the rear bearings having to wait for the oil to travel the whole way through the engine, they are pressure fed directly off the oil pump.

Helps with oil pressure.

 

When you push them in stock form, I am not surprised that they have oil pressure issues.  They have a very poor oil return system - worse than a crossflow - and a very poor sump.  I put a fair bit of time into improving all the oil galleries and return galleries to try and get on top of this.  I also have a 7.5l sump to build for it, and the canton windage tray already.  Although this car will primarily be a Sunday cruiser it WILL be flogged at Street Sprint type meets, so the oiling system has to be up to the job.

 

The curse of the high volume oil pump strikes again. 

 

Hi Ando,

 

If you're going to give it a flogging then please look at http://wydendorfmachine.com/kitb.html?kitid=2

This will fix 90% of the problems with the clevo. I know its a bit of $ but you can just get the bushes and have a machine shop fit them cheaper than buying the reamer. I'm about to order one for myself as I have two clevo blocks here waiting to be built. This is Ford fixed it in the 70's albeit quietly. I can go on and on about the oiling system for the Clevo but the pipe to the back of the motor it's just a half ass fix which doesn't actually do much except show that you have oil pressure, it's basically bypassing the whole oiling system and showing it straight into the oil pressure sender. I have never seen a clevo with a broken rod at the back of the motor and I doubt you have either! it's always in the middle and the bearings will always have the same scorch marks on them due to lack of oil when revved past 7k. With a HV oil pump they just fill the heads and empty the sump faster.

 

Another thing you want to do is drill a hole in the water jacket at the back of both heads and feed it into the cooling system at the front like so:

 

 

 

This will stop hot pockets of steam piling up there

[fxd351 5]

Well I can safely report the high volume oil pump has been permanently retired. I also have a 7.5ltr high volume sump. I quite like the idea of running the braided oil line..definitely going to look into that one.

 

I have had a lot of work done to combat oil starvation. Never realised I was running the high volume pump, honestly think that was my downfall. I estimate it lasted 5,000kms until the bearing gave way.

 

On a side note, how do you tell what gears the top loader has? Are you using standard shifter or a hurst? I have a burst, don't have any trouble with it. But in saying that it's never going to be the worlds fastest shifting manual!

 

 

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[broken-wheel 659]

with gears normally you turn the input shaft one turn and count the output shaft rotations, this is without opening the box where you start counting teeth

[bear351c 10,273]

 I have a burst, don't have any trouble with it. ..................

 

Good luck with that.!

[fxd351 5]

Lol. Stupid auto correct. Hurst I meant to say.

 

 

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[ando76 4,354]

I can vouch for the shitness of the oil system. On assembly I noticed there are only two holes in each head for oil drainback and three in the lifter valley. The stock capacity is only 4.5 litres or so and I noticed that the oil only needs to be down a litre or so before starvation is a problem.

 

I saw it mostly coming off a freeway and rounding a bend at the end of the exit ramp. Gauge drops to zero for a few seconds then recovers.

 

Freeway cruising in 4th with 3.27 diff gave 2700 rpm, enough to pump all the oil up to the top end and starve the pump.

Yep that is why I always run my speedway crossflows(and the burnout ute) 500ml over full - even with a 7.5litre sump. at any one time there is always a couple of litres in the top end - trying very hard to get back down to the bottom end.

[ando76 4,354]

On a toploader have a look at the tag on it.  You will find it has a number on it.  When you have that type in toploader id tag into google.  That will give you a list which will tell you year of manufacture and also whether it is wide ratio of close ratio.

 

Go to the bottom of that list and you will find the ratios for eack.  Job done.

[ando76 4,354]

Hi Ando,

 

If you're going to give it a flogging then please look at http://wydendorfmachine.com/kitb.html?kitid=2

Nah mate none of that stuff for me.  When I say flog it, I really mean drive it HARD.  You know like they are meant to be driven - not hidden away.  As I said at the start of the thread, It will never go over 5500 as I very much doubt it will be making any power past that with the baby hydraulic.

 

I will do one of my own oil pumps and 7.5lt sumps with the Canton windage tray so I am not expecting any oil pressure issues - especially with my block mods. 

 

As to the additional oil line only telling you oil pressure - that's crap.  It is still pressure fed oil - direct from the pump - pumping oil into the system from the rear as well as from the front through the normal method.  My best mate 'pogo' is a hydraulics specialist and is the go to man for hydraulics in NQ.  He has a clevo powered ski boat and he did this mod to his engine after reading about it.  He noticed instantly that the tired old Clevo lost the terrible noises it was making without the line.  That's good enough for me.

 

Plus the block has already been machined and I really don't think it will be necessary in this application.  I may be wrong - time will tell.

[fxd351 5]

Sorry to press you more on the additional oil pressure line, but I'm curious with the flow of oil how it all work?

 

Obviously oil will flow from the oil filter location, up to the gauge mount location. Oil will also flow from the pump upward to the oil gauge mount to give normal pressure reading. Sounds silly but wouldn't there be a collision of oil? Just trying to picture the flow in my head. Curious to see a picture or two of the additional line connections if possible?

 

Sorry if I'm busting your chops, but the subject definitely interests me especially after my latest incident. Cannot afford to let this happen again!

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

 

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[gerg 10,871]

Not so much a collision but an alternatve path. If the main gallery becomes a restriction (mainly when cold) then this other line is an express route for the oil to travel through. Once the two meet, then the oil flows through the path of least resistance. Pressure is the same in all directions, so the oil doesn't "collide", just meets and is pressurised at whatever pressure the relief is set at.

[broken-wheel 659]

the cleveland only  has two oil galleries so basically it from the pump it goes to the first mains then the lifters, after the lifters get their oil THEN the rest of the mains get their share, the hose to the back of the block feeds the mains from both sides, in essence it will work up to about 7000 rpm where the sump will be dry in seconds anyway

 

if you only plan to spin it to 5.5k then just half a litre more should be ok and she will love you long time, but if you flare to 6-7k for longer than 4 sec or there about you will throw a rod

 

the stock clevo sump is the piece of shit that the xflow is as well, when you take off in a hurry half oil goes to the back of the motor

 

you know you will throw a rod in the clevo when you rev it past 6k and suddenly has fuckloads of power to 7000 rpm, probably because there is no load from the oil pump, then you decelerate and BANG! there goes the rod through the side of the block! you always feel this extra power up in the rev range before it goes bang

[ando76 4,354]

Yep Gerg has it sussed in regards to the way the additional oil feed works. 

 

Both you and I will be running 7.5 litre sumps and I don't think you will ever empty that with a standard pump - set up correctly - and with opened up oil returns like I have. 

 

And that's the thing - don't just look at oil supply.  Look at how all that oil is going to make it back to the sump AND how you are going to whip the oil off the crank and keep it around the pump so it never runs dry.  It is an area that is often overlooked and is especially important past 5500. 

 

The windage generated by the crank just goes stupid past 5500 and even further past 6500.  I have no plans on revving my Clevo harder than that - because I don't need to.  I have 456hp of flow at 400 thou lift.  That is plenty for me and this engine will make stupid torque from off the bottom.  That is what makes these engines - and crossflow for the same matter - feel so strong.  This is a tough street motor and I have no plans to ping it past 6000.

 

In my opinion if you want to rev a clevo past 6000 - just buy a chev.   

[broken-wheel 659]

but the chev will never sound like a clevo at full tilt! i heard one in a DeTomaso with weber ITB's and almost creamed myself, that sound is forever burned in my memory

[gerg 10,871]

A work colleague spins his clevo to 7500 in his stock class race boat and does so for very long periods (bridge to bridge). Never thrown a stock rod even at that rpm

[ando76 4,354]

Nice work Gerg - Betcha that is one sweet and well built clevo. 

 

My point with the Chev comment was more a tongue in cheek one - sort of hinting to the fact that I'd rather use the low down torque that these engines generate than rev the freckle out of it.  Build the engine and set the camshaft to hit hard off the bottom so you don't have to turn it that hard.

 

Having said that I do understand that there are application where it is necessary to rev them and like any engine, they can be made/built to handle it.

[gerg 10,871]

"if you wanna rev it, Chev it..." Right?

 

That's what all the Holden heads (or Ford haters) used to say back in the day but that statement says nothing except that you need to flog it to make power. Anyone wanting to rubbish Fords and Clevos just needs to look at the top contenders in Engine Masters then come back and say Fords are shit. People often forget the origins of the Clevo. It's basically a de-tuned race engine. Not perfect by any stretch as you could attest Ando but they are a whole generation ahead of the smallblock Chev. It was proven in Trans-Am racing when the Boss 302 always had 20 hp over anything else. It had GM scratching to make their own clevo head:

Actually they were developed around the same time as the Boss but just couldn't make them work like Ford could.

[Olive Xm 34]

Ando what are your block mods for the oil? 

[ando76 4,354]

Um sorry I haven't replied - been a bit flat with other stuff.  I oval'd out the oil returns in the centre of the valley and then I ran a die grinder down middle to encourage oil to flow towards them.  I also smoothed out in between the lifter bores and dug small little drains which also fed into the oil return.  If you have a look back around post 76 & 137 I think you will get a better idea. 

 

I gave the oil returns in the head a really big oval out and then made sure that the where they met up with the block was right and then I enlarged the corresponding holes in the block.

 

I also chamfered the oil outlets from filter.  I gave the timing case area a really good going over, removing all the burrs and chamfering the oil returns. 

 

It was all about trying to create a path of least resistance for the oil, working on the theory that oil (like water and air) will always take the path of least resistance. 

 

That's about all I can remember at the moment. 

[Olive Xm 34]

Cool thanks.

[Jestr75 41]

How is your engine coming along??

[ando76 4,354]

It is currently sitting in a box under the bench.  God damn paying work is getting in the way and I have been doing up bit to the Mad Scientist Crossflow of late.

 

Cam has his car up and running and registered so he will be more than ready for Leyburn 2016.  Me - Well I need to get my finger out. 

 

Sorry mate - no Clevo porn for at least 4 weeks.