MSD 6AL-2 Programmable: Anyone Running Them?

[slydog 7,873]

Them curves look VERY basic...like less than 10 dots.My first 2 curves I put in based on 30 degree's winding down to 22 for start and 30 on max has like 10 dots before 3000 LOL .I know there a different level of engine and driving style but I would like to start pulling timing up high as it nears max RPM to try remain on the safe side of the tune but also down want the car to just lay over.

Of the graphs I have veiwed some seem to pull timing around 4500-5000ish (only like 2 degree's or so) then back up to max timing again by 5250-5500.

 

Of course all this will change when the car gets tuned and it tells me what it wants needs.

[gerg 10,871]

The dip in the curve should coincide with the peak torque. With my little cam, (206/214@0.050") that happens between 1500 and 3800. Up top it starts tapering off so I can dial in more timing than I could with something that has bigger lungs. I aim to keep the curve as simple as possible so I don't go complicating things when trying to make adjustments. After all, it's just a family car with a bit of character and fun factor.

[RAWDEAL 222]

If you had a chassis dyno and unlimited time , or even just roadtesting it / tuning / roadtesting again ect how do they tune it for max advance over all the range? do they just keep adding timing untill it pings then back it off ? 

 

or have i been doing it wrong on my cortina ect lol

[gerg 10,871]

Nah that's it for me too... It's just bum dyno and listening out for rattles... Works ok and beats $150 every time I want to chuck it on a dyno... Still tempted though. Maybe I don't want to know how much power my wags doesn't make What I have done is hook up my AC switch to the retard function not only as a way of killing the pinging if I get shit fuel but also as a tuning device to see if it makes a difference while driving.

[ando76 4,354]

Gee rob that is some detail.  Id be lucky to have 10 dots total.  dyno testing with these systems is where you get the biggest gains, quickly.  Having said that there is nothing wrong with the bum dyno either.

 

I like to have a base curve when going to the dyno and then have a look at where the engine is making peak torque and then see if you can maintain the torque by adding timing, but avoiding detonation at the same time.  HP increase is a by product of this usually so it is a win win situation.  Having said that I am tuning a car for a purpose and that means I don't have to consider part throttle, deceleration etc etc. 

 

Careful attention to the timing and watching air fuels and soon enough you have a very happy engine, that makes good numbers, with little to no stress and you know its not detonating.  all without having to touch a dizzy spring. 

[gerg 10,871]

Peak torque = maximum cylinder filling, which is when you need the least timing because more mixture is squeezed into the chamber thus burns quicker (not counting rpm advance). Horsepower is a multiple of torque and rpm, so if you make more torque at a given rpm, you make more power. A big cammed engine makes its peak torque up high so the timing curve starts very advanced (because cylinder filling is poor down low) but tapers back the higher you go. As this happens, the need for rpm advance increases so it's back up to roughly where it started down low so a race-oriented engine like yours Slydog would have a near-flat curve. A stock engine is the exact opposite, where good initial timing would be around 10 degrees, to match the torque characteristics of that engine. As rpm increases, the cylinder filling becomes less and thus more timing is required to complete combustion... Say 40 deg. So stock engines need a wide advance for their torque curve but many race engines can get away with flat timing, say 30 deg (no advance at all).

[FORD_MAN 1,026]

Still tempted though.Maybe I don't want to know how much power my wags doesn't make

Shouldn't be to bad on the dyno, my tuner told me a back in the day a stock 302C used to make 125rwhp or 130rwhp for a good one.

My 302c has the next cam up (214@0.050" 510" 110LC) and makes 215rwhp. 90hp over stock

[RAWDEAL 222]

Peak torque = maximum cylinder filling, which is when you need the least timing because more mixture is squeezed into the chamber thus burns quicker (not counting rpm advance). Horsepower is a multiple of torque and rpm, so if you make more torque at a given rpm, you make more power. A big cammed engine makes its peak torque up high so the timing curve starts very advanced (because cylinder filling is poor down low) but tapers back the higher you go. As this happens, the need for rpm advance increases so it's back up to roughly where it started down low so a race-oriented engine like yours Slydog would have a near-flat curve. A stock engine is the exact opposite, where good initial timing would be around 10 degrees, to match the torque characteristics of that engine. As rpm increases, the cylinder filling becomes less and thus more timing is required to complete combustion... Say 40 deg. So stock engines need a wide advance for their torque curve but many race engines can get away with flat timing, say 30 deg (no advance at all).

 

Fark this actually opened my mind up! Makes you think about things!

[gerg 10,871]

I wish I could explain it with fewer words but I can't. I really need pictures.

[broken-wheel 659]

going to revive this a little and say that in my experience pulling 2 degrees in the last 800rpm made a bit of a difference and increased power, all in at 6200 (31) then drop to 29 degree from 6200 to 7000 also you don't need a lot of dots as it interpolates between them (i'm running a 7 series)

 

the 7 series has a lot of smarts like 1 timing curve per gear and slew rate, so for example you don't use any slew and stomp on your loud pedal and yeah you get some wheel spin and get to about 100km/h then you look at the data and see where the wheel spin is and start adding dots until you're happy, you basically limit the amount of rpm vs time until you eliminate wheel spin, it's like a rev limiter vs time, you allow you engine to jump from 2000 rpm to 6000rpm in 4 seconds

 

now this might sound crude but you can also do this via retard so instead of rpm limiting you can retard your timing based on what gear you are in so you can get some pretty decent traction control on the street, i know it's useless the track but on the street this is so fucking cool, if it's raining you don't swap ends

 

a lot of people don't use the MAP sensor but you should use it, keep in mind the MSD software reads in PSIA not PSI Use the MAP sensor to tune your carb, you basically use it as a vacuum gauge and with the data logging (not sure if the 6 series has it but the 7 series has about half minute) you can do full runs and review it, see where the 2ndary open and tune those, also you see how much vacuum you got a full throttle, this is quite hard when you have to watch the road but this way you just pull over and replay the run another cool thing you can do is use the MAP sensor to retard ignition and get crackle pop on downshifts, specially when you have a manual, retard to 5 degrees on xx PSIA and bang! you'll be the coolest kid on the block

 

some guys use the built in shift light to trigger Co2 shifters, use the burnout rev limit to save a lot of your engine in the burnout pre race, no need to spin past 5000 rpm to heat the rears once you wrap your head round the MSD box you realise this fucking this is awesome! and while it's no Haltech/Motec/MS it can do some really cool shit for example with the 7 series you can get the optical trigger which hooks up to spark plug 1 wire and tells the MSD when it fires, you nov how per individual cylinder timing, how does this help? well if you run the stock intake manifold then you can tune for the 1 and 6 cylinders if they're running a little rich/lean compared the others, this is really good if you run nitrous

[ando76 4,354]

Have a look at the power grids as well. They have some awesome features, but as usual you pay for them.

[gerg 10,871]

The 7 sounds like a nice bit of kit, probably too nice for my setup.

 

As good as they are, the main limitation with these ignition boxes is the amount of timing variation the distributor can cope with (phasing) before crossfiring will occur. This took some time to sort when I fitted my 6AL-P to an MSD billet dizzy. Luckily the trigger wheel is on a fine spline so I could get the spark reasonably centred to the cap terminals. I had to solder on a wing to the end of the rotor tip to make sure the spark didn't have to jump more than it needed to.

 

This required sacrificing a dizzy cap by drilling a hole next to #1 terminal and watching the spark over the range of timing possible from the tune I had in it. I then moved the trigger wheel and adjusted the timing again till it was happy.

 

I ended up with about 35 base, 45 total and pulls out about 20 under full load.

 

The programmable rpm curve is nice, but the best feature I think is the load curve (ie boost retard). It transforms an ancient clunker into a crisp, responsive and pleasant driver, and even lets you wind the timing right up for a quiet, mellow idle. It has the effect of plugging in your vac advance to manifold vac, without the drawbacks of poor response time. You also need less throttle opening to achieve the same idle speed.

[broken-wheel 659]

if you need 45 degrees of timing then that's something gone wrong ....must be open chamber iron head?

 

the reason i used the 7 is because the HSV2 coil it needs will pump out 1 amp sparks which was needed for silly comp on E85, i also wanted to try LPG turbo down the track so it was the right choice for an ignition box

 

yeah the vacuum/boost is nice, specially when you tune your carb for cruise, start retard is awesome as well, you get away with a small braille/dekka battery for startup, like 5kg batter will start a high comp xlflow with no issue 

 

really i think every warm crossflow should get the programable 6 msd

[gerg 10,871]

Nah closed chamber 302, mild cam, stock compression. I just gave it what it needs, didn't really think too much about the numbers. I can say that it goes pretty well for what it is, doesn't feel overly advanced. Closed chamber is much more efficient and detonation resistant than open, due to better swirl design (no stagnant pockets).

 

302c has massive piston dwell at TDC so can handle shitloads of timing.

[matt_lamb_160 252]

I assume that timing includes the vac advance and that is why the numbers are high. What is the timing without vac advance (base and total)??

[gerg 10,871]

I guess if you took out the vac advance, it would be around 18 base, but it's been 2 years since I played with the curve and my laptop shit itself, so I can't even check it now.

 

It only rattles when I lug it right down in say 3rd gear 1100 rpm. Any other time, it's happier than a dog with 2 dicks. This is all on E10 too.

[wagoon 2,429]

Thought this was relevant to the topic.

Im hooking up my msd 6al2 and Im not sure if I need to put a fuse on either of the power wires.

One wire runs direct to battery and the other wire is a 12v ignition that gets hooked into the red wire that runs to dizzy. So has anyone put fuses in either or both of the lines and if so what size. The msd install instructions mention nothing at all about fuses.

[broken-wheel 659]

I put 30A on the Heavy red and goes straight to battery

I put 5A on the trigger red wire and goes to my ignition switch 

I got the Heavy Black straight to negative

 

the big heavy red wire according to MSD chews 1amp per 1k rpm with the 5 series, if you run the 7 series then they recommend 25 or 30 amp as you might run a lot of things from shift light (up to 3 amp) etc.

[wagoon 2,429]

Ok cool. I did read about the amp draw per 1000rpm but read conflicting figures but was never more than 2amps per 1000rpm for the 6al2 and I wont be revving past 6500 let alone 7000 so a 20amp should be enough

[broken-wheel 659]

even 10 should be ok, i tend to use the light up fuses now and i like them a lot, the small trigger 12v red wire only draws like 250 mA 

pro tip, don't ever connect the MSD heavy red wire to a relay

[gerg 10,871]

The original dizzy wire (which is now redundant) can serve as a trigger and is fused already through your ignition, but I guess an extra fuse after that won't hurt as long as it's less than the ignition supply, a 2A should do it. I ran a 15A for the MSD supply straight off the battery. 2 years of daily use and hasn't missed a beat.

[wagoon 2,429]

Using the wires direct from dizzy into the new harness I have made for the car as I have installed a complete seperate fuse box for all the new stuff I have installed. So only fused in new box hence the need to know the fuse size. Makes it easier as I havent had to splice or cut original wires execpt for the original battery wires.

15amp on main power sounds the goods. I wonder if the msd has different power requirements for 6 and 8 cylinder engines??

[broken-wheel 659]

the 1amp per 1000 RPM is the requirement for a V8 engine running 10 points of compression (350 chev), got this from Jim from MSD couple of years ago

[wagoon 2,429]

Thats interesting cause the reason I asked is when I was looking for the amp draw I found this off the MSD tech forum https://www.msdignition.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22151 Says that for a 4 cylinder the figure is 1.5 amps per 1000rpm's. I have also read that it is 0.7amps per 1000rpm for a V8 so I didn't know what would be relevant for a 6, but I have never seen anything mentioned about compression related draw.

[broken-wheel 659]

I think that's wrong, in a V8 the capacitor in the MSD box has less time to charge than in a 4 cyl motor so the 4 cyl should use around half of what a V8 would and the 6cyl should be in the middle