MSD 6AL-2 Programmable: Anyone Running Them?

[gerg 10,871]

I'm gradually leaning towards a locked dizzy and running the MSD box for my 302C. I've already downloaded the software and played with it a bit, and it seems pretty good, if not that user-friendly.

 

I'll need a MAP sensor, but they want more than 80 bucks for one. I've heard that GM 1-bar sensors are basically the same thing. 0-5 Volts in linear increments throughout the range. i reckon i could get one from a Dunnydoor for 10 bucks.

 

Couple of questions:

• Are they worth the money in the end?

• Can you run any old coil or do you need their whizz-bang one?

• Has it proven to be reliable?

• They say you can dial in up to 30 degrees of retard, yet there are 2 graphs ("Run retard" and "Boost Retard") which basically translate to mechanical and vacuum graphs, but each graph has a scale that reads 25 deg each. Does it "stack" each of them on top of each other or is the total advance pegged at 30?

Their help section is pretty vague, so anyone who's played with them might be able to help

 

Cheers

[ando76 4,354]

gerg I have run one for two years now in my speedway car and yes they are worth every cent.  As to their reliability - no issues and mine lives in the under dash area of the speedway car and gets full of - well you can imagine.  The worst I have seen one of these systems make is 15rwhp increase.  Not bad for $348 &$175 US for the box and the HVC 2 coil. 

 

Is the coil worth it - hell yeah they are designed to run with the 6al2.  Crazy will probably explain in technical terms the benefits of that coil but I can tell you that my meth speedway engine has never run / idle, well everything really better that what it did with that coil. 

 

To get your head around the 'run retard graph' you have to think backwards.  You are pulling timing out of the dizzy with this set up.  Instead of installing your dizzy at say 10 degrees you install it at 30 degrees.  The MSD then retards the timing by the degrees you input into the graph at what ever revs.  Say you want 10 degrees at idle - well you need to retard the timing on the graph by 20 - if you want 30 total at 3500 rpm then your graph would finish at 0 degrees retard at that rev. 

 

Once you get your head around working backwards it is a piece of piss.  Unless you run nitrous of boost, you will not need the boost retard function.  I do not run the MAP sensor input on mine but it would be a piece of piss to hook up as you have described. 

 

You can have several different 'tunes' or 'curves' saved on your laptop which you can then transfer into the MSD at any time you like.  The actual box only holds one 'curve' at a time.  You can alter that tune on the fly with a laptop.  great for dyno tuning. 

 

You will need a serial port to USB adapter cord as the MSD6AL2 is supplied with a serial port to serial port cable.  There are still laptops available with serial ports in them but they are hard to find and the cables are cheap enough and when you connect the two together you get a good length of cord, which is handy for getting away from the car while it is on the dyno.  flying engine bits can hurt I've been told.  Touch wood I have not experienced that!!!!

 

I trigger my MSD6AL2 with an EST Dizzy but if you've got a v8 you can by and MSD dizzy that will do it or use the factory electronic dizzy I suppose. 

 

Overall I rate these things very highly.  It is a bit weird seeing an XF speedway car hooked up to a laptop for tuning but this is the future and the results speak for themselves. 

 

Sly has told me on more than one occasion that these boxes were designed for Pro stock drag racing where any advantage is a big one. Enough said for me. 

[gerg 10,871]

Thanks Ando, good info there.

 

I'm on top of the backwards timing thing, say you want 15 initial and 35 total, you'd install the dizzy 35 advanced and bring it back 20... That i can grasp. But the help file says you can have a total of 30 deg range, and the graph only goes to 25, same as the load ("boost retard") map. I was wondering if they added the two, or all timin was capped at 30... Say If i was to run a nice amount of vac advance (say 20 deg) and on top of that dial in 20 "mechanical", would that add the two, (40 deg) or just stop at the prescribed 30 max?

 

Or does that 30 degree total count for the graphs stopping at 25 plus any step retards you might dial in? It doesn't explain that at all in the help file, but could be important on a street car running max timing for economy. The reason why i want more range than that is i want a bit of start retard, as if you have the base timing wound up to where it likes to cruise, it smacks itself in the head when you hot start it.

 

If hooking a laptop up to an XF speeway car looks weird, imagine one hooked up to a Clark Griswald brown XE wagon!

 

I'm mostly after tuning the curve for either E10 or Premium, maybe run the retard trigger off a switch to allow for shit fuel if i come across it, instead of having to pop the hood and bump the dizzy back a bee's penis to stop it pinging.

 

This is all hypothetical of course, as I haven't got one yet!

[gerg 10,871]

Just bought one!

[ando76 4,354]

Apparently there is a way to change the graph size from 24 points to 30 I just can't remember how to do it.  but basically you have 24 degrees of variation to what you want as total with the default graph.  I just put in a couple of dots in the cranking range to lower the timing from idle. 

 

So if you wanted 35 total you have 24 points of variation to play with back from there which gives you about 11 degrees at crank or idle which should be fine for any engine.  My current burnout engine which is very low comp and runs on fuel and starts happily with 28 locked. 

 

Brain not functioning real well this morning as it was a late one last night but if I get time over the weekend I will see if I can work out how to get the 30 point graph happening. 

[gerg 10,871]

Thanks mate, no rush, I have a week or two before it arrives on the mail.

[gerg 10,871]

 

Bitches.

[Thom 6,651]

Fuck yeah buddy, nothing like opening a box that contains a box of power inside

[slydog 7,873]

And then...?

[gerg 10,871]

And then...?

 

Ok minor update: box is in and running, but map sensor and run retard not hooked up yet. It's just hooked up to my old Bosch dizzy like an old 6A for now. Looking for a shitty laptop to run it all with. Will run my HEI-style MSD dizzy locked when it's all ready to go.

 

I got a GM (cough) 1-bar MAP sensor from a European Barina, as I looked at all the Commodores in the lot and the sensors were all gone! I certainly hope the reason isn't because they fuck up all the time. The Barina one has the same part number so it's all good. The MSD gear uses GM style MAP sensors that have a linear output of 0-5v over the scale of the sensor; ie a 1-bar one will have that range of output but a 3-bar one will also have 0-5v output, but over a wider absolute pressure range. This is why you should closely match the MAP sensor to you application. You wouldn't use a 3-bar one on an atmo engine, as there would be insufficient resolution for good, accurate tuning.

 

So far, even with just the multiple spark function, the performance improvement is great over the stock setup. Starts without throttle, idles very smoothly, and torque is improved. While before, if running a little lean on the cruise, it would surge and hesitate, now it just powers through. I could even back the mixture off half a turn from before.

 

I can't wait to get the programmable part happening and fully go to town on the timing as well to get the most out of it.

[slydog 7,873]

Good work Gerg...mate converted his to a halls effect style unit with a pick-up or kit off somthing else.I'll find out and send you the details if you like.I prefer the the big fat DC pick up over the mag pick up of a electronic for even better performance from the ignition system. 

[ando76 4,354]

Another one converted to the virtues of a programmable ignition which provides good spark.  Wait till you get a curve into it and then you will discover the true power of that little box. 

Why anyone would play with dizzy weights anymore is beyond me and the same could be said of locked timing IMHO, but each to their own I suppose.  My old man always said "there is more than one way to skin at cat" but I like to add to that by saying "Yeah but I prefer to do it with the sharpest knife."

Keep us informed of your progress please.

[slydog 7,873]

My old man always said "there is more than one way to skin at cat" but I like to add to that by saying "Yeah but I prefer to do it with the sharpest knife."

 

Gold right there...

[gerg 10,871]

Ok final update: MAP sensor is in and MSD dizzy is finally setup and working.

 

All I can say is..... wow!

 

It wasn't an easy run to install it (I'll go into that later) but the difference is simply amazing. Easy Cold starts, sweet part-throttle response and no detonation are what somebody running a mechanical dizzy could only dream of, especially if running E10.

 

Some important points:

 

• It's not well documented in the instructions, but rotor phasing is the biggest hurdle to overcome when running programmable ignition. Phasing is the relationship between the ignition trigger and where the rotor is in relation to the dizzy cap terminal at the time of spark occurring. Get this wrong and you'll be in a world of poo, and you'll definitely not get away with running a standard dizzy if you want to use the full range of 30 deg available from the MSD box. To check rotor phasing, you need to sacrifice a distributor cap by drilling a large hole next to #1 terminal and shine a timing light down into it to see where the rotor sits when the spark happens. It also shows how far the spark has to jump if it is out.

 

• I had to modify my billet dizzy by pushing off the trigger wheel from the splined shaft and advancing it a couple of teeth to the point where the triggering happened just as the rotor approaches the cap terminal, that way as the computer retards the spark from that point on, the rotor still has lots of travel left to transfer the spark and not have to jump too far.

 

• I also had to modify the rotor tip by soldering an extension to the trailing edge of it, to allow a greater range of operation. The length is critical, for if you go too long, the spark will jump instead to the previous cylinder and the engine will misfire and run like a hairy goat.

 

• MSD wiring is not intuitive at all. The colour traces on the black dizzy wires are orange + and purple -, yet the MSD box has purple and green. Now you'd think the colours would sort of match with purple going to purple but you're wrong! It goes dizzy orange trace to purple + and purple trace to green - .... Stupid! Get this wrong and it won't run very well, if at all. Ask me how I know.

 

• I can say that my fuel economy will improve no doubt. After putting annular boosters in my 600 Holley, I dropped my jets from 63 to 61, and it ran well. Now with the MSD fully functional, I'm trying 59s and it still goes really well, if a bit on the lean side. It does have a little bit of surge at cruise speeds just as the mains are coming on. Jet changes take 10 minutes so it's no drama to go back.

 

Overall, i'd highly recommend this MSD box to anyone who runs a carby-equipped car. It won't give you EFI-like performance but is the closest thing to it and blows away any mechanical distributor out there.

[RAWDEAL 222]

 

Bitches.

I bought one a while ago! jegs.com had the wrong description/picture to the msd part number, ended up buying the manual one LOL was so pissed i had to sell it at a loss without even opening it

[ando76 4,354]

Gerg - good to hear that you have had success.  they truly are an awesome piece of kit.  Interesting on the rotor phasing thing, but no real surprise as they do say to check it in the instructions from memory. 

Happy motoring for you now and stunned looks to come when the 'griswald' is hooked up to the laptop.....

[gerg 10,871]

 

I bought one a while ago! jegs.com had the wrong description/picture to the msd part number, ended up buying the manual one LOL was so pissed i had to sell it at a loss without even opening it

 

This is the problem we have being so far from the US, in that we get killed on the freight if we do choose to buy from there, and if we need to return the item, it's sometimes not even worth it. Buying the same stuff here is no better, they import it cheaply then just mark it up to be the same price anyway. It sucks.

 

I got my 6AL from a place in Puerto Rico, called "Performance R Us". Sounds dodgy but they have a good rating and were great, and price was the best. Took a while to get here but I'm patient.

[RAWDEAL 222]

This is the problem we have being so far from the US, in that we get killed on the freight if we do choose to buy from there, and if we need to return the item, it's sometimes not even worth it. Buying the same stuff here is no better, they import it cheaply then just mark it up to be the same price anyway. It sucks.

 

I got my 6AL from a place in Puerto Rico, called "Performance R Us". Sounds dodgy but they have a good rating and were great, and price was the best. Took a while to get here but I'm patient.

 

 

yeah sucks to be us! Gotta make sure the part numbers are correct i even told them about it but it would have cost me 200$ to get it sent back to them then i was supposed to pay the shipping again to here? pfft ( i did have a heap of other stuff i ordered though)

[BigCav 464]

Hey Gerg

 

what dizzy are you running, i have a large cap 8580 and running straight lpg i want a timing curve around 16 base to 30 all in (14deg retardation)

 

im hoping i wont need to phase the rotor, cause honestly it sounds like a pain in the arse especially on the initial install

 

thoughts?

 

how have you found the setup now youve been running it for a while?

i am avoiding the vacuum module for now just for ease of install and MAY add it in later on, did you notice a difference between running it and not running it?

[gerg 10,871]

G'day Cav yeah mine's a very early ProCrap billet MSD copy, Uses an old GM points-style cap. No vac advance, weights are removed and shaft welded to advance plate. It's running sweet now, but about a month ago I had to bump it back a tooth on the reluctor splines to retard it in relation to the rotor.

 

Problem was when cranking it was advanced so much it was firing on the next cylinder and the engine was smacking itself in the head. The best way to dial in your rotor phasing is to sacrifice a dizzy cap and drill a hole right above #1 terminal so that both rotor tip and cap terminal are visible. Using a timing light, run the engine and see whereabouts your spark lies between the two when it occurs. The timing light will capture that exact moment and you'll know how far to advance or retard the pickup.

 

Not sure about yours, but my dizzy has a splined shaft that the pickup is lightly pressed onto. It can be tapped down off the shaft with a couple of screwdrivers, rotated freely to the right spot, then levered back up again, all without removing the dizzy or even moving it. I'll get you some pics as soon as I get a chance.

 

As for your tune, that sounds pretty good but if you've got a bit of a cam, it will tolerate quite a lot more initial, say about 25, then 35 total.

 

I'd only run that once you get your map sensor hooked up. Honestly, that's the key to great driveability. I had mine hooked up as soon as I had the dizzy in, and it allows me to have sweet cruise/idle performance while getting the timing right at WOT. It cost me all of 16 bucks at the wreckers, it's from a Barina, but any Commodore or GM car should have one. Make sure it's an N/A model as you'll want the 1-bar sensor, as they can go up to 3-bar for blown/turbo setups.

 

Just plug the bastard in and unlock your full potential. I even dialled in a heap of retard on overrun to give it some burble... A wank I know but I did it just because I can!

[gerg 10,871]

Oh yeah and I extended my rotor tip too by soldering on a little "wing" of brass to allow for the extra range of timing, but you can't go too crazy as it will crossfire to other cylinders if it's too long. Mine's probably about 5mm longer than the rotor tip.

[gerg 10,871]

Dizzy:

map sensor:

modded dizzy cap:

MSD box mounting:

[gerg 10,871]

One of my many curves saved:

[BigCav 464]

thanks for the info mate, alot to take in but i get it (i hope haha)

 

trying to compare your dizzy to mine i know mine has a larger gap in the cap aswell as a wider tip to the rotor so hopefully it covers alot of those issues.

 

They probably dont fit your copy but they have off the shelf adjustable rotor and veiwing cap now too which should make it alot easier if i do have to adjust it

 

Any chance you have a higher resolution pic of the timing curve?

[gerg 10,871]

I'll try and do a screen dump instead of a shitty photo