ando76

grimmy you have some seriously big gonads my friend.  Most cam manufactures recommend run in on outer springs with seat pressures over 120lb.  I would think that at 140 you are pushing the envelope and run the risk of wiping a lobe at some stage.  but hey if you get away with it all well and good. 

grimmy you have some seriously big gonads my friend.  Most cam manufactures recommend run in on outer springs with seat pressures over 120lb.  I would think that at 140 you are pushing the envelope and run the risk of wiping a lobe at some stage.  but hey if you get away with it all well and good. 

If you want to rev it with confidence,have no harmonics issues and have less than .600 lift, then there is only two springs for a x-flow.  Isky 295D Tool room springs with 115 on the seat. For lift at .584 I use the 295Ds little brother the 235D at 110 seat.  Tried - tested - proven.  I have never fucked a cam bearing - pulled a shaft mount roller rocker out etc. with these springs and they will go to 7500 all day, every day.  My engines are used in speedway but this spring is equally at home on the street.
 
People will say I'm crazy and have no clue running such low spring pressures and a just a single spring with a damper that is ' way to small to do the job' and that's cool - cause they are the same people that have there engines apart, miss meetings and have constant failures and that is good for me. 
 
I must say that I did not come up with this spring.  The late great Geoff TRUSCOTT was my dear friend and he discovered this spring and he loved it because it does not create valve train harmonics.  I am using the 295D on my roller cam engine - Yes roller cam.  It does have less than .600 lift tho. 

If you want to rev it with confidence,have no harmonics issues and have less than .600 lift, then there is only two springs for a x-flow.  Isky 295D Tool room springs with 115 on the seat. For lift at .584 I use the 295Ds little brother the 235D at 110 seat.  Tried - tested - proven.  I have never fucked a cam bearing - pulled a shaft mount roller rocker out etc. with these springs and they will go to 7500 all day, every day.  My engines are used in speedway but this spring is equally at home on the street.
 
People will say I'm crazy and have no clue running such low spring pressures and a just a single spring with a damper that is ' way to small to do the job' and that's cool - cause they are the same people that have there engines apart, miss meetings and have constant failures and that is good for me. 
 
I must say that I did not come up with this spring.  The late great Geoff TRUSCOTT was my dear friend and he discovered this spring and he loved it because it does not create valve train harmonics.  I am using the 295D on my roller cam engine - Yes roller cam.  It does have less than .600 lift tho. 

gerg I have run one for two years now in my speedway car and yes they are worth every cent.  As to their reliability - no issues and mine lives in the under dash area of the speedway car and gets full of - well you can imagine.  The worst I have seen one of these systems make is 15rwhp increase.  Not bad for $348 &$175 US for the box and the HVC 2 coil. 
 
Is the coil worth it - hell yeah they are designed to run with the 6al2.  Crazy will probably explain in technical terms the benefits of that coil but I can tell you that my meth speedway engine has never run / idle, well everything really better that what it did with that coil. 
 
To get your head around the 'run retard graph' you have to think backwards.  You are pulling timing out of the dizzy with this set up.  Instead of installing your dizzy at say 10 degrees you install it at 30 degrees.  The MSD then retards the timing by the degrees you input into the graph at what ever revs.  Say you want 10 degrees at idle - well you need to retard the timing on the graph by 20 - if you want 30 total at 3500 rpm then your graph would finish at 0 degrees retard at that rev. 
 
Once you get your head around working backwards it is a piece of piss.  Unless you run nitrous of boost, you will not need the boost retard function.  I do not run the MAP sensor input on mine but it would be a piece of piss to hook up as you have described. 
 
You can have several different 'tunes' or 'curves' saved on your laptop which you can then transfer into the MSD at any time you like.  The actual box only holds one 'curve' at a time.  You can alter that tune on the fly with a laptop.  great for dyno tuning. 
 
You will need a serial port to USB adapter cord as the MSD6AL2 is supplied with a serial port to serial port cable.  There are still laptops available with serial ports in them but they are hard to find and the cables are cheap enough and when you connect the two together you get a good length of cord, which is handy for getting away from the car while it is on the dyno.  flying engine bits can hurt I've been told.  Touch wood I have not experienced that!!!!
 
I trigger my MSD6AL2 with an EST Dizzy but if you've got a v8 you can by and MSD dizzy that will do it or use the factory electronic dizzy I suppose. 
 
Overall I rate these things very highly.  It is a bit weird seeing an XF speedway car hooked up to a laptop for tuning but this is the future and the results speak for themselves. 
 
Sly has told me on more than one occasion that these boxes were designed for Pro stock drag racing where any advantage is a big one. Enough said for me. 

Gerg - good to hear that you have had success.  they truly are an awesome piece of kit.  Interesting on the rotor phasing thing, but no real surprise as they do say to check it in the instructions from memory. 
Happy motoring for you now and stunned looks to come when the 'griswald' is hooked up to the laptop.....

Never to pretty to skid - especially when you could fit some au 16's and they would tuck right in. 
 
Clevo I'll send a manifold down once I get my stuff together.  Just waiting for the other new one to arrive and then I'll be out playing. 

all good man.  I'm just looking at making a few alterations to the new manifold and have brought another one from Mark in case I go backwards. LOL.  No one has really played with the new manifold as they are just so good out of the box.  I compared the new one to my old TRUSCOTT/ WYATT one and just got a few idea I want to try to see if I can make a gain.  Your work is driving me to the die grinder.  Been a bit busy with the skid ute and a few other bits and bobs but I will get there and then I might post it down so you can run it up on your bench - if your keen. 

Sly is spot on here, it is all about the shape not the size, the size needs to be correct for the airspeed needed but it is smaller than what people would think. The size also changes to control speed at certain points of the port, when air goes around a corner the short side of the turn needs to be made wider and flatter to slow the air just enough for it to hang on going around the corner then back to a smaller shape to pick the airspeed back up and so on.
Different combinations need a different head port also in size and shape, for example Sly's race motor I would make the head port as straight as I could, completely different to the port I did for this engine. Sly's engine will be used in a smaller rev range at VERY high revs so port speed will be up just from the revs alone, giving it as straight a port as possible is the way to go and the port can be bigger because of the higher rev range, this would hurt low rev performance but the ute is setup with a high stall and such so that part of the rev range is bypassed, this is part of the whole combination for everything to suit.

shape looks good.  Be interesting to see if they flow any differently when the manifold is together as a whole.  This manifold will perform very well I do believe and 'balance' the engine which makes for a much happier engine.
Best I get out to the shed with the die grinder to see where I can improve the new manifold or you will be overtaking it. 
Great update.

I ported out the sections of runners today and tested them on a head to check the velocities and flow, you can see that I have filled the section that will be filled with plasticine to simulate what the end shape will be, it performed well and runners 1,2 and 5,6 flow the same so I'm happy with that consistency, also gained 10cfm over the first manifold so a win there also, next I have to fill the playdo areas with alloy then move onto the centre section.
 

All good Flatchat.
 
Clevo you are on it with your flow bench and the way that you use it.  A wise man once said "I've never seen a flow bench win a race" which is true to a point.  They are like dyno in my eyes.  Tuning tools to see gains or loses. 
 
Keep up the good work. 

People are correct that a flow bench results aren't the be all BUT doing this sort of work couldn't be done without one, you are just guessing if your not using one. The amount of things I've discovered in the short amount of time that I have had my flow bench for is crazy, the most important part of a flow bench in my opinion is the velocity probes, to be able to see the speed of the air and were it wants to be and to be able to determine at which point the speed is so high it becomes a sonic choke plus feel the turbulence while holding the probe is invaluable. Also being able to hear the air tells you a lot, you would be amazed at what shapes do what to airflow and the roar it makes when the air shears off a turn and crashes. Even the way you can manipulate the flow with lumps of plasticine and the strange shapes that give good gains.
If you get the velocities correct and stable the CFM numbers follow, I believe I showed this in the head flow thread, the airflow was even and stable all the way past 600 thou of lift because in my opinion the port shape is good, even tho the cfm numbers aren't earth shattering I am confident that is due more to the stock valve, worn seat and small cross sectional area than anything else, Once these things are optimised I think good gains will be made across the lift range.
Most of all this is just great fun, sitting in my shed playing around with car parts is my heaven, even if the results go backwards I learn something from it.

Gee that's some impressive figures if they are at 28" of water.  Would like to know a few more details like initial port sizing and chamber mods.  That is a rocket ship up to .500 and then tapers so I'm thinking that the ports aren't that big. 
 
But I guess at the end of the day we aren't comparing apples with apples, unless we all send our heads to Clevo120 and have them flowed on his bench.  What I like most about his thread is that he is detailing the effect each modification has on flow. 
 
I'd hate to see this thread descend into a pissing contest and I only posted my figures as Clevo asked.

as Sly said, don't delete it just give us some more info etc.  It is human nature to question someone who enters a forum with a post like that, it happened to Wazzy once but we have learnt that he can back up his claims with solid numbers. 
So I guess what we are trying to say is give us some info as for me, these forums and threads are about learning from one another so we can improve the breed. 

Good to see you back in the thread Clevo.  Yeah my head has a lot of thought and maths in it, but not a great deal of dollars.  Cam has found some further gains now that he has started on the actual head.  I will post up the flow figures when it is done, with and without the inlet fitted.  I didn't post the exhaust flow figures in the initial post but I will say that the inlet - exhaust percentages are down below 70% without the manifold fitted which is what we were aiming for, to allow for the reduction when the inlet manifold is fitted. 
I'll be interested to see what final flow figures you achieve when you get a decent seat cut and back cut on those valves. More power to you.

Hey guys, I've been flat out and haven't been on. The figures posted by flatchat are huge!!!! if they are at 28in like Tony mentioned, Those figures are top of the food chain stuff at 400hp potential, good stuff I would like to know more also.
What we have to remember when throwing figures around is the context they are achieved, my port is a budget aimed setup, the head is pulled straight off an engine and has a worn but usable seat and stock standard valves, with just some time if you have the tools the results I posted can be achieved with minimal cash outlay.
Tony's head has a little more invested in it and more thought into valve/bore ratio's ect ect and his results reflect that with the topend flow charge, not a massive amount of cash spent I wouldn't believe and he has thought about what needed doing for the purpose it's intended and got excellent results.
Flatchat's head would be a top dollar no expense spared setup I would imagine and to be truthful I haven't seen a crossy head with higher flow figures, not saying it can't be done so don't think I'm doubting the results just saying that's the topend of results there and you should be very happy with that as long as the port size isn't too big for the rev range ect ect.
I have no problem with people posting results of there work on here and if someone gets better results than me than more power to them I'm just happy to try some things and sharing the results, if others can have some input and share some insights that's even better and I look forward to seeing it.
 
Gerg, I will do some Cleveland heads in the near future and post up the results, I have a set of open and closed 2V's on the shelf so I will do stock flow test's on both then show some porting work. Cleveland heads don't like a lot of material removed from the short turn but some blending and improving the radius of the short turn does work well, the heads seem to like having the roof raised but these things I will test to prove when I get to them, hopefully soon.
 
I am yet to see a head that doesn't improve from general blending especially in the seat/throat/bowl area. When I port I start at the throat and blending into the seat then the bowl/valve guide areas then the short turn, so I'm work from the valve head back towards the manifold face.

Just involve yourself,offer and supply info like the basis of the thread.Any more info of what you use it for car type and so on...who did the work and such?

I've run an AEM in my race car for the last four years.  Burnt one sensor in that time but easy enough to get replacement (put it down to the methanol).  Found them to be very accurate - same reading as a MOTEC unit I used on the dyno, so it was good enough for me. 
 
With careful positioning in the car you can read the dial as you are going down the straight, can't see the colour on the dial but the red led numbers are very easy to read, even for a bloke that is on the wrong side of 40.
 
Have not used the innovate one so unable to comment.  If they both have a bosch 5 wire sensor then I guess it comes down to personal preference.  GoPro is the best speedway data logger you will ever get.  You can 'hear' the engine and understand what is going on better than any one dimensional graph on a computer screen. 

I've run an AEM in my race car for the last four years.  Burnt one sensor in that time but easy enough to get replacement (put it down to the methanol).  Found them to be very accurate - same reading as a MOTEC unit I used on the dyno, so it was good enough for me. 
 
With careful positioning in the car you can read the dial as you are going down the straight, can't see the colour on the dial but the red led numbers are very easy to read, even for a bloke that is on the wrong side of 40.
 
Have not used the innovate one so unable to comment.  If they both have a bosch 5 wire sensor then I guess it comes down to personal preference.  GoPro is the best speedway data logger you will ever get.  You can 'hear' the engine and understand what is going on better than any one dimensional graph on a computer screen. 

Drop me a PM and I will explain duckboy.
 
Yeah I am stoked.  With the thought of more to come I am even more pleased.  I know how well my old head performed in flat tappet form and with my old cut and shut manifold, so this head with a custom roller cam and the new manifold is going to go real close to attaining my goal.
 
Matt - yeah it does.  They love the new mani - they were going to ring me and ask me where there engine had gone after they fitted it and ran it.  It makes the engine that much happier.  Exactly the same as I experienced when I bolted mine on 'as cast' and had to go down 7 jets sizes to get afr's anywhere near close.  If you have a good cut and shut manifold the total horsepower gain will not be that great but the torque curve is where you will see the greatest difference - oh and you will use less fuel and your oil will become less contaminated.  not bad advantages I say. but I'm hardly impartial.  The boys are and they used a separate dyno to me so the results and gains are the same.  Good enough for me.

$1500 cut and shut manifold prior. New manifold after.

Spot on. Low lift figures create the acceleration required to overcome the restriction in the manifold. More duration on the cam also helps, more time for air fuel to enter equals more power.
Boys ran their race car up on the dyno yesterday with the new manifold fitted. 25hp gain and they were still pulling fuel out of it. They ran out of jets at 12.1 AFR so there is still plenty in it. Another happy customer.

Spot on. Low lift figures create the acceleration required to overcome the restriction in the manifold. More duration on the cam also helps, more time for air fuel to enter equals more power.
Boys ran their race car up on the dyno yesterday with the new manifold fitted. 25hp gain and they were still pulling fuel out of it. They ran out of jets at 12.1 AFR so there is still plenty in it. Another happy customer.

Only on paper and the calculator does the manifold drag it down.  The great low lift figures will trick the manifold into flowing more is my tip. 
 
That cam is a okay for speedway 2 barrel applications.  I would have gone for a wider lobe sep to soften the torque delivery and I don't like the exhaust duration being longer than the inlet, should be the other way around to give more time for the air to flow through the manifold restriction.  The inlet also opens later than a 392c but each to their own.
 
Has the owner run this cam before?  If so did he like the way the power came on etc. 
Keep up the good work.