CHESTNUTXE

CLEVELAND ENGINE TALK

23 posts in this topic

Lets go right back to the late sixtys early 70,s and then 80,s with aussie clevo,s ,but when the clevo was born the end of the muscle car thing in america was just about over,by 1974 it was replaced with the 400 and m engines,so throw in any 2c worth with rumors or fact,from what i have read it was launched in 1970 perhaps even late 69,the canted valve arrangement was very successful and nascar said nope no canted valves ,that could be one of the reasons i have heard lately why the 351c only lasted about 4 years ,gerg chime on in.

gerg likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They can have very thin bore walls, I have seen some bored 30 thou over and hitting a water jacket unless it is one of the bulge blocks with 4 bolts mains. They can also run hot easily if the cooling system isn’t bang on. None of this explains why they didn’t use them for long though. I think that is more to do with physical size. The heads are massive compared to Windsor heads which externally cut back in on the exhaust side which means the engine isn’t as wide and fits between shock towers easily .

gerg, CHESTNUTXE and bear351c like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

also the new smog laws in usa killed the clevo,i have been lucky with all the clevos i have rebuilt never had any problem with overboring,much of the rumor with thin walls is the 2nd go at casting the d2ae blocks,the early D blocks did not have this problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
also the new smog laws in usa killed the clevo,i have been lucky with all the clevos i have rebuilt never had any problem with overboring,much of the rumor with thin walls is the 2nd go at casting the d2ae blocks,the early D blocks did not have this problem.
Yes smog killed it, that and the fuel crisis. Why build a thirstier, more expensive engine to have the same performance as its smaller, lighter, cheaper cousin? It did live on in a different form in the 400/351M as a luxury car/truck engine, but that version was never made to be a performance unit, and mostly existed in the smog era when pretty much all engines were dogs.

I've always viewed the Cleveland as a race engine de-tuned for the street. It was conceived at a time in the mid-60s when small cars and fuel economy were a laughable idea in the US. Performance was king, and Ford was smashing it on all fronts. But lead-up time for a new design was much longer back then. By the time the Cleveland was finally introduced, the need for bigger, faster, thirstier was starting to fade.

They introduced a lot of innovations that were very outside the box for Ford at the time. They borrowed ideas external to the Ford design school with the splayed valves (1950s Chrysler poly & early 60s big block Chev), poly chamber (Chrysler), fuel pump mounting design (Oldsmobile) cast-in timing case (also Olds) , high-ratio self aligning rocker design (BB Chev), all thrown into a package that could be produced on similar production lines to the existing "Windsor" design.

There's good reason for this shift in thinking. Ford apparently wanted the best engineers to head their performance-oriented approach to design, and poached a number of GM engineering gurus to start the process. This is why many ideas from their rivals were implemented with the Cleveland.

Another aspect of its design was its ability to be marinised easily. The one-piece front timing cover eliminated a lot of leak points that the Windsor would have had. Some suggest that this engine was designed with a marine capability as its main priority.

The original name "335 series" was apparently coined to denote the intended stroke in inches. This same numbering system was also initially used on the new big block of similar design, the"385" until it was eventually referred to as the "Lima". Despite the 3.35" stroke never being used in production, it's what stuck until they were more often referred to as "Cleveland" and "Windsor", to differentiate the two 351 designs by the respective engine plants at which they were made.

I might also touch on the head design, the more significant being the 4V variant. It was very radical for the time, and was a totally different approach to making an engine breathe. Instead of a long, steady ingestion of air (through longer camshaft duration, lift, etc) the premise of the 4V was instead for short, rapid gulps through big ports and valves (ie large nostrils). This enabled some respectable power with a relatively sedate cam profile and valvetrain. Up to a point, this worked, but then design limitations on the exhaust side hampered any further improvements. This coupled with race engine builders not knowing how to approach the large port design, they started filling them back in and making up exhaust port plates, etc. and just building the engine as they would any other type (Chev, Windsor, Mopar) and any design advantage of the port section was lost.

As a factory performance engine, they were brilliant. Its lifespan was cut short, so much of the work that could've been continued never happened. Ford Aus inherited the design but didn't do much more to it other than squeeze what they could out of the 2V design. Because our emission laws (and fuel prices) soon followed the rest of the world, it would suffer the same fate. Have you ever heard someone mention "Cleveland" and "fuel economy" in the same sentence? Only if that sentence also included the word "bad".

Sent from my CPH1607 using Tapatalk

bear351c and Valvebouncer like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

i have been lucky with all the clevos i have rebuilt never had any problem with overboring,much of the rumor with thin walls is the 2nd go at casting the d2ae blocks,the early D blocks did not have this problem.

 

I'e heard that any D2 blocks were still US cast. The machinery that got shipped out here was useless for our local production as our iron was harder to machine using their gear. They had to re-engineer everything including the casting process. I think the easiest way to tell if it's a Cleveland or Geelong casting is to look in the valley for a "CF" (a big "C" wrapped around a little "f") or a simple "GF", for their respective foundries.

 

As the Aussie engine plant was small-volume, they never updated their master moulds, so as they wore out, the casings became more and more wonky. Core-shift was becoming a problem by the time XD-XE blocks were popping out. The pillow block was a partial fix but the V8 was out of vogue by then.

 

 

EDIT: I'll clarify that "D2AE-CA" originally referred to US-sourced blocks that could (not always) end up as Cobra Jet engines. Aussie blocks still used this exact part number but were not performance engines. The Aussie moulds must have been based on the CJ ones, including carrying over the part number. People often thought they'd scored a 4-bolt block going by the number but the only way to know is to pop the sump. All clevo castings were the same at the time: Boss, CJ or grandad's 2V Fairlane. The 4-bolt mains were just an extra machining operation.

 

Ford in their wisdom, created a system and then proceeded to not stick to it.

 

 

Sent from my CPH1607 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the yanks found a backwater planet called geelong and got rid of it all ,here is a picture of my std bore pillow block may 82 cast.3w3Dr5pZ_o.jpg

gerg likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
the yanks found a backwater planet called geelong and got rid of it all ,here is a picture of my std bore pillow block may 82 cast.3w3Dr5pZ_o.jpg
Interesting that they still used the D2AE part number even though it was made in a completely different country, manufacturing process and material.

Sent from my CPH1607 using Tapatalk

CHESTNUTXE likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
D2ae means off Cleveland design yeah ? Thats what i always thought
D2 = 1972
A = model line
E = engine

CA = Cleveland or Boss (not specific apparently)

Sent from my CPH1607 using Tapatalk

CHESTNUTXE likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even in usa now latest blogs say dont see any 351c blocks anymore at swap meets ect very hard to find i even had 1 guy from Sweden asking about them on e bay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Even in usa now latest blogs say dont see any 351c blocks anymore at swap meets ect very hard to find i even had 1 guy from Sweden asking about them on e bay
That's pretty sad, although they've been out of production there for 44 years now, so not that surprising. About a million were made, which sounds like a lot but to compare, the small block Chev reached 70 million. Back in the 90s, they used to have a cash for clunkers scheme where they'd pay you to scrap your car. Lots of classics got squished.

In USA, the 351M/400 is much more common as it was made for over a decade.

Sent from my CPH1607 using Tapatalk

Valvebouncer and CHESTNUTXE like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
De Tomaso Pantera......... They love them.!  So, do 71 - 73 Mussie owners.  A sweet roar and an attractive looking donk, I must say. But, i'm biased. 
Fun fact: Ford Oz had a secret stash of clevos put aside for DeTomaso that didn't dry up until 1988. Euro emissions laws were still pretty happy up until the 90s. From then, Panteras and Longchamps used the Mustang donk.

Sent from my CPH1607 using Tapatalk

Valvebouncer and CHESTNUTXE like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very good question i think its around late xb or xc era the first bunch of NASCAR style blocks were cast as well but didnt have the pillows and are very rare.2nd NASCAR blocks were done around 81 or 82 

gerg likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What year, did the Geelong Foundry start casting Clevo blocks?

Very good question i think its around late xb or xc era the first bunch of NASCAR style blocks were cast as well but didnt have the pillows and are very rare.2nd NASCAR blocks were done around 81 or 82 


Wouldn’t it be 1971? Remember we were the only country to have a 302 clevo and they came out in the XA in 1972.
CHESTNUTXE likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

we were still using imported clevelands in 1971 in xy and early xa ,and the first d2ae std clevo blocks were cast with the usa tooling handed over to us thats why they still have the c on the oil pressure switch side of the block,the 302 c in my picture to the left was a xa fairmont 1973 engine and its a usa block with the 4v notches in the block but its still only a 302,interesting question i imagine the 302 heads were made first before we started our own geelong blocks.

Valvebouncer and gerg like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Yanks didn't really get to enjoy the Clevo, as they only had it for a couple of years, before they went back to the smaller, revvy Windsor style blocks. Us Aussies had them from XW to XE, and a couple of Effies/Ambo's and stuff.

But, a lot of US Clevo's made it to Nascar, Oval track and some drag cars, with great success. Obviously, they had to get around the oiling issue, but, once you got over 5 grand those 4V heads would come into their own. Much has been written/spoken/debated about this engine family, but, they're reasonably priced and make good HP when built with the issues mentioned.  They are heavy, and wide, and certainly not for every vehicle.  

Tim Meyer, Arrow etc.... have made new Clevo's... with the oil starvation issue resolved. Why would they spend thousands on R&D, casting, machining, if there wasn't a market for them.?  Would love to be able to afford a "brand new" Clevo. All alloy with ally heads and intake, all cast to look original. 

 

....and a 6/71. :rolleyes:

 

 

CHESTNUTXE and Valvebouncer like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ford did have big plans in the early 70s for this engine next level was to fix the oiling problem and 4 bolts mains on all blocks but by 74 it was all over,pat gnals ford performance book of the late 70s states the aussies are still making the cleveland and front row racers are getting their blocks ,meaning the first batch of nascar blocks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of the rare items for the clevo were alloy blocks n heads n manifols given to moffatt to experiment with but come raceday the boss 302 was refitted also nascar autolite manifold played to the sound of 8 trumpets

You can buy lifter bore sleeve kits, now.  Ream out, press in sleeve, ream again, problem solved. 
Simples.
43887934172_5e00fdf8fb_m.jpg  


Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk

bear351c and gerg like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now