judgetread

Got this sorted!
 
Turned out to be a electrically issue somewhere, removed all the wiring and ignition setup and replaced it all with a 6al-2 programmable, rewired everything.
 
Timing is rock solid again.
 
Thanks again all for the input!

Almost looks like my shed floor except mine has trans fluid too LOL. But I would check the sump bolts first as they have a habit of backing out. If any are loose just get your bolt and grab em with a pair of vice grips enough to leave a mark on em then when you wind em back in the burred up thread hols in the block better.

Ok where to start....
 
100% get rid of that extra wire from the starter. It's a throwback to the days of points and ballast resistors and 9V coils and that rubbish. Your MSD is a capacitor discharge ignition, meaning your coil is a standalone item that only the MSD is hooked up to. Some voltages in the coil supply can spike to 600v, not good for any electrics especially tachos, which is why they give you a tacho output from the MSD box.
 
You can check for spark before you crank the engine. Put the dizzy in to roughly where you want it, say 30 deg btdc #1 (of course put the engine on compression?#1).
 
Now ignition on (don't crank), get the coil HV lead and plug it into the coil. Shove a spark plug in the other end and rest it on a good earth. Rotate dizzy back and forth and watch for spark on the plug. It won't sound like a normal spark "click" but more like a very short "beep". This is the MSD output of 6 sparks, at a high frequency. Please, I warn you DON'T FUCKING TOUCH IT. It really, really hurts.
 
Yes you're getting the basic concept of rpm advance. At a certain load, fuel and air burn at a pretty constant rate, so you have to start the fire earlier each stroke as rpm increases.
 
I should think 10 deg at idle would be reasonable to get you running, which would show as 20 deg retard on your graph if you started with 30 at the dizzy. Probably start ramping up at around 1800 then at 3000 you can flatten it out. You can then start adding extra dots to trim the curve to what you need, which takes time.
 
If it's a bit hard to start when cranking, you can retard it right back but keep in mind the phasing issue I mentioned. It showed up the most when starting when I was setting mine up, kept smacking itself in the face from crossfiring.
 
Happy tuning!

It works the other way around, set your dizzy to max advance then you remove timing through the 6al programmable. Weird but Im sure thats how it works with that box

I do understand the concept just thought there must of been a model of Windsor that was neutral balance. Apparently it's common in the QLD version that comes with a roller wrapped by a wicked black Xf sedan LOL.
 
Cheers guys.  

< has neutral balanced windsor scat crank, so maybe not a factory issue but for aftermarket purposes?

< has neutral balanced windsor scat crank, so maybe not a factory issue but for aftermarket purposes?

Small update team;
 

 

 
Crank trigger wheel spigot made and vac pump mandrel machined to accept it as well. This little job has been sitting over at a mate's lathe for a long time. He owns a small business as well and was having trouble finding the time to machine it up for me. Took it to the Kiwi bloke that did a heap of machining for the VTEC mini and bam done in 2 days and an awesome job.
 
It is important that the trigger wheel runs true to the balancer. You can get it close with just the bolts but MSD actually recommend a spigot to locate it. There is a couple of ways to do it but this is the way I went with.
 
Just a small update but having this part will allow me to continue on and finish THOR. Not having it done was really holding things up. Time to fit it and make some really cool brackets and other custom stuff. Another step closer.

hook me up on the programmable mate Id like to replace the 685 anyways
 
They usually dont have cam walk but  its possible if wrong thrust plates are used, for the price of a gasket the peace of mind in checking it will be worth it

Just fit hyd units bro. Solid lifters need adjustable rocker gear and a solid profile ground camshaft.  

hook me up on the programmable mate Id like to replace the 685 anyways
 
They usually dont have cam walk but  its possible if wrong thrust plates are used, for the price of a gasket the peace of mind in checking it will be worth it

Yeh it all went together nicely, got hold of another distributor to swap tomorrow and try( Ive done alot to the current one basically replaced every part, take endplay out completely, swap gears to a melonized distributor gear, reset pickup, checked all bearing etc etc) still no go.
 
Ive swapped out ignition box with a msd 6al, though maybe the 2 step was doing some funky shit but didnt make a difference.
 
Ive spoken and seen alot of tuners over the past few days and 1/3 say its the ignition box, 1/3 say dizzy and 1/3 go fucks me maybe cam walk lol
 
I know a new dizzy with mechanical advance will combat the problem, it should advance as it retards but regardless of out come timing covers coming off weekend or early next week for a peace of mind check, maybe wrong thrust plate and cam gear  chewed it out a bit or plate retaining bolts have come loose? either way im going to check it out, doesnt cost much for a timing cover gasket ...

If the cam is walking you should be able to tell via a wider than normal roller path on the lobes if that is so. May only be small amount so may be hard to tell also.
 
It's deff not the ignition,TBH it can't be.Dizzy if it's set up with very little end float/play it should be fine too as it's still working.I know a guy thats trying to sell his programmable MSD for $380 that you would prob get a touch cheaper that is tuneable via a alp top. Would require a bit of dyno time with a open minded operator to get the curve just right for it.You could load up a couple of curves and pick which you want for each occasion to use.IE-street or race tunes.
 
I don't know if these things suffer from cam walk though and I'd guess it would be something you would check on assembly.I did and found 2 lifter bores are not perfect but still good enough to use so 2 years later I'm not having any issues.I know Holden V8's and Hemi 6's need cam buttons sometimes and so maybe your Windsor needs something like that too ? 
 
On a Hemi 6cyl they can walk so far they wreck the gear which cause pump failure then stuff go bang in a bad way. 

hook me up on the programmable mate Id like to replace the 685 anyways
 
They usually dont have cam walk but  its possible if wrong thrust plates are used, for the price of a gasket the peace of mind in checking it will be worth it

main concern is initial would be 39 and box can only take 10 out at cranking speed and it was kicking back on starter at willowbank when it was warm at 34

yep, ill take the endplay out of it tomorrow and try again crank trigger would be great ...

That's the problem with the dizzy being connected to the oil pump drive. Load transfer is huge and when you start turning them there is a lot of fluid being pumped. Get way with it in stock but as soon as you turn them timing variance is a given. Hence the crank trigger on THOR.

yep, ill take the endplay out of it tomorrow and try again crank trigger would be great ...

yep, ill take the endplay out of it tomorrow and try again crank trigger would be great ...

And after doing 2 Windsor oil pumps in the last 2 weeks I can tell you that what smithy and sly are saying is 100% correct.
 
Windsor use a 1/4(6mm) hex drive, whereas clevo and crossflow use 8mm hex drive. From what I learnt doing these pumps Smithy is all over it with pump loading up the shaft, ESPECIALLY IF the standard pump is not set up properly and is continually passing oil over the relief. Don't even get me started on what a high volume pump would do on a Windsor.
 
If you want to eliminate the issue 100% you will need a crank trigger. Pure and simple. Or as everyone has said - with the known data you have you could very easily draw up a curve on an MSD programmable ignition that would (redneck) over come the issue. Nothing wrong with a bit of redneck tho.
 
I'd do what Smithy has suggested as a starting point.

It needs play to expand when warm but yeh?
 
Well msd 6al didnt help it

Happen's on engine's with or with out MSD or computer controlled ignitions to due to wear or gear mesh causing again end float on the dizzy

A light bulb went on for me as soon as I read "ignition box". Having internal electronics, there's a very good chance that there's a delay between input and output.
 
A set delay will mean less at lower rpm but will increase in effect in proportion to rise in rpm.
 
Say you have an engine spinning at 1000 rpm. That's 16.67 times a second, or 6000 deg/s. If your ignition box was delayed by say 0.5 milliseconds, that would mean your timing would retard by 3 degrees. No probs, just bump up the timing to compensate, you're back to where you started. Trouble is, as rpm rises, the angular distance covered during this fixed delay goes up so the timing becomes increasingly retarded.
 
Now at 6000 rpm, your crank is spinning at 100 times a second and 36000 deg/sec. That 0.5 millisecond delay now has your spark firing 18 deg later than when triggered, but because you compensated for your initial timing by 3 deg, it's 15 deg late.
 
Yours is nowhere near as severe of course but it's just an example to demonstrate. Yours dropping 5 deg would have a delay equivalent to 1/3 of my example, or 0.167 ms. Sounds like nothing but makes a big difference to actual timing.
 
I really doubt that it's anything mechanical, as trying to flex any engine component by 5 crank degrees will simply break it (just picture what 5 degrees looks like).

ok so end play is 30 tho so its a little large but not overly big.

yeh im going to go find some shims and try again