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408WPN

STROKED 408W MANUAL CONVERSION - HYDRAULIC VS CABLE 🤘😜

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Hi looking at Manual conversion on my XF FALCON UTE 408w.

Have opportunity to purchase MUSTANG 93 T5 wc V8 gearbox. 

Seems alot of people prefer to go hydraulic over cable due to reliability over cheaper set up with cable. 

Have done quite abit of research & seems 8 out of 10 prefer hydraulic. 

Cable set up alot stiffer on leg etc if sitting at intersection & could be prone to stretching or snapping. 

Headers on my motor are Pacemaker

tri-y's & hang quite low so not sure if hydraulic slave cylinder or bracket would get in the way also. 

Can't remember if this references hydraulic or cable but also read possible for firewall damage or pedal box twisting etc 

Any feedback be great thanks 👍💯💥

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for Me, i'd use whats there.. as long as it can handle what your 408 is going to put out hp wise

 

it works depending on what clutch you've fitted i would guess. 

do you have a bell housing for the gearbox? if it's cable, i'd consider just using it. 

 

finding a hydaulic pedal set up for XA-XE (fits XF) is usually difficult or expensive. you can convert it naturally with lots of mucking around. 
the slave set up you'd be mucking around a fair bit also, you can use a CONCENTRIC slave inside the bell housing again, well depend on heaps of stuff, what fits, what bell housing etc etc

 

cable pedal boxes from XF are weak, they crack at the pivot pin with a standard 6cyl clutch even eventually..

same for the firewall where the cable goes through.. 

you can reinforce both prior and see how you go.. or leave it and try it for a few weeks etc seeing if it even works well enough. 

 

 

this (was fully welded later) was how i reinforced My pedal box

2D31wym.jpg

 

 

ignoring the rust in this picture bodged with fibreglass.. that's how an XE clutch master is reinforced.. the XF is basically flat panel with a tube off it. 

you can reinforce the front to make a stronger cable mount(they do crack the firewall also with standard 6cyl clutches eventually) 

c4AOZr9.jpg

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45 minutes ago, deankdx said:

for Me, i'd use whats there.. as long as it can handle what your 408 is going to put out hp wise

 

it works depending on what clutch you've fitted i would guess. 

do you have a bell housing for the gearbox? if it's cable, i'd consider just using it. 

 

finding a hydaulic pedal set up for XA-XE (fits XF) is usually difficult or expensive. you can convert it naturally with lots of mucking around. 
the slave set up you'd be mucking around a fair bit also, you can use a CONCENTRIC slave inside the bell housing again, well depend on heaps of stuff, what fits, what bell housing etc etc

 

cable pedal boxes from XF are weak, they crack at the pivot pin with a standard 6cyl clutch even eventually..

same for the firewall where the cable goes through.. 

you can reinforce both prior and see how you go.. or leave it and try it for a few weeks etc seeing if it even works well enough. 

 

 

this (was fully welded later) was how i reinforced My pedal box

2D31wym.jpg

 

 

ignoring the rust in this picture bodged with fibreglass.. that's how an XE clutch master is reinforced.. the XF is basically flat panel with a tube off it. 

you can reinforce the front to make a stronger cable mount(they do crack the firewall also with standard 6cyl clutches eventually) 

c4AOZr9.jpg

Bloke I'm looking at buying pedal box off out off XE 6 but seems to think XE 6 pedal box same as XE 8 & could of adapted hydraulic set up to fit. 

That doesn't matter though as long as XE pedal box strong but photo's you added of reinforced area are awesome. 

Going to add some photos & T5 looking at buying. 

Have got some problems on the new crate motor have to sort out first, is under warranty but gone through about 2 l oil last 1800km

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15 minutes ago, 408WPN said:

Bloke I'm looking at buying pedal box off out off XE 6 but seems to think XE 6 pedal box same as XE 8 & could of adapted hydraulic set up to fit. 

That doesn't matter though as long as XE pedal box strong but photo's you added of reinforced area are awesome. 

Going to add some photos & T5 looking at buying. 

Have got some problems on the new crate motor have to sort out first, is under warranty but gone through about 2 l oil last 1800km

 

Screenshot_20210822_141113_com.android.chrome.jpg

 

 

as fun as a manual is, i'd rather keep a working setup on the road. especially with lots of variables in a conversion like this. 

that's about all i can help you with on it, @gerg might have a little more to add on the clutch side of things

 

if it's set up for cable clutch i'd use it. the pedal box is a cable one.. so reinforce it behind the pin like mine(remove the plastic bush near welding or be very quick to cool it with water as you weld) reinforce the firewall also.
you will probably need an XG clutch cable (unleaded XF) maybe EB falcon clutch cable .. to be long enough i'd probably measure the length before buying it as the 3 i mentioned are probably all slightly different, and all for 6cyls maybe the EB V8 one or XH V8 one is longer.. check it  (leaded XF and XD XE have forks on the drivers side, way too short)

 

i like the way is says, "in very good condition as you can see in photos"  hard to see INSIDE a gearbox like that. 

 

6wWmSFA.jpg

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2 minutes ago, deankdx said:

 

as fun as a manual is, i'd rather keep a working setup on the road. especially with lots of variables in a conversion like this. 

that's about all i can help you with on it, @gerg might have a little more to add on the clutch side of things

 

if it's set up for cable clutch i'd use it. the pedal box is a cable one.. so reinforce it behind the pin like mine(remove the plastic bush near welding or be very quick to cool it with water as you weld) reinforce the firewall also.
you will probably need an XG clutch cable (unleaded XF) maybe EB falcon clutch cable .. to be long enough i'd probably measure the length before buying it as the 3 i mentioned are probably all slightly different, and all for 6cyls maybe the EB V8 one or XH V8 one is longer.. check it  (leaded XF and XD XE have forks on the drivers side, way too short)

 

i like the way is says, "in very good condition as you can see in photos"  hard to see INSIDE a gearbox like that. 

 

6wWmSFA.jpg

Thanks a million great help, best I've had all day researching I've done. 

If I can get my engine issues sorted under warranty, will be able to buy the T5. 

Can you search SandyAndy Wilson on messenger & flick us a message 

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16 minutes ago, deankdx said:

 

as fun as a manual is, i'd rather keep a working setup on the road. especially with lots of variables in a conversion like this. 

that's about all i can help you with on it, @gerg might have a little more to add on the clutch side of things

 

if it's set up for cable clutch i'd use it. the pedal box is a cable one.. so reinforce it behind the pin like mine(remove the plastic bush near welding or be very quick to cool it with water as you weld) reinforce the firewall also.
you will probably need an XG clutch cable (unleaded XF) maybe EB falcon clutch cable .. to be long enough i'd probably measure the length before buying it as the 3 i mentioned are probably all slightly different, and all for 6cyls maybe the EB V8 one or XH V8 one is longer.. check it  (leaded XF and XD XE have forks on the drivers side, way too short)

 

i like the way is says, "in very good condition as you can see in photos"  hard to see INSIDE a gearbox like that. 

 

6wWmSFA.jpg

primo M8,so much great advice to come back to when needed. 

Bloke with T5 list lot's of photos of cogs etc but end of day wouldn't know until running 

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Ok I'll chime in, I did a T5 conversion a few years back and firstly I think my 6 cyl box is marginal behind even my mild 302. Unless yours is a T5Z, (specially made Ford high-torque version), you will make it go pop pretty quickly behind a 408 stroker. My money is on 3rd gear.

 

To go hydraulic, you need the longer pedal shaft that pivots the brake and clutch pedals. I managed to swap mine without swapping the pedal box, but I had to cut a little corner off the heater box to get it in. I still would rather do that than swap a pedal box.

 

The cable type pedal pivots on its own one that sits lower in the pedal box, normally a spot-welded plate and pin that goes in a punched hole in the LH side of the box. I converted an EF to manual by making up a pivot out of a gal bolt and bolting it through that hole with large washers each side. You will need more than this though, as I found out it was starting to crack the pedal box from the stress. I made up an extra brace that went from the other side of the pedal down to the firewall, bracing both sides. This worked fine until I got rid of the car.

 

You can go cable on a V8, but you need a V8 cable bellhousing which I believe were only made in 157 tooth flywheel size, ie 302 Mustangs. Seeing as yours is based on a 351W, it will be 164 tooth, and will require a bellhousing to suit that. I don't think any 351s were ever cable (any F-truck experts here?) so I think your only option is to go hydraulic. Unless there is a way of fitting a 157 tooth flywheel with the right imbalance. Early ones were 28 Oz, later (post 82) were 50.

 

Next is slave cylinder clearance. I have Tri-Ys on mine (I believe Genies or similar) and I had problems with the clutch line fitting coming in from below hitting one of the pipes. I just swapped the fitting and bleed nipple around so the fitting is up top, bleed is on the bottom. How do you get the air out you ask? Just pump it up, push the slave cylinder all the way back in, which pushes the air back up to the reservoir and then keep pumping pedal/pushing cylinder back till you get all the air out. Works fine for me. The bleed nipple is only there to plug the hole.

 

I researched this countless times to come up with the cheapest/simplest way, I seriously looked at cable (as I didn't want to stuff around with pedal boxes) and I did go hydraulic in the end.

 

Sent from my CPH1920 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, gerg said:

Ok I'll chime in, I did a T5 conversion a few years back and firstly I think my 6 cyl box is marginal behind even my mild 302. Unless yours is a T5Z, (specially made Ford high-torque version), you will make it go pop pretty quickly behind a 408 stroker. My money is on 3rd gear.

 

To go hydraulic, you need the longer pedal shaft that pivots the brake and clutch pedals. I managed to swap mine without swapping the pedal box, but I had to cut a little corner off the heater box to get it in. I still would rather do that than swap a pedal box.

 

The cable type pedal pivots on its own one that sits lower in the pedal box, normally a spot-welded plate and pin that goes in a punched hole in the LH side of the box. I converted an EF to manual by making up a pivot out of a gal bolt and bolting it through that hole with large washers each side. You will need more than this though, as I found out it was starting to crack the pedal box from the stress. I made up an extra brace that went from the other side of the pedal down to the firewall, bracing both sides. This worked fine until I got rid of the car.

 

You can go cable on a V8, but you need a V8 cable bellhousing which I believe were only made in 157 tooth flywheel size, ie 302 Mustangs. Seeing as yours is based on a 351W, it will be 164 tooth, and will require a bellhousing to suit that. I don't think any 351s were ever cable (any F-truck experts here?) so I think your only option is to go hydraulic. Unless there is a way of fitting a 157 tooth flywheel with the right imbalance. Early ones were 28 Oz, later (post 82) were 50.

 

Next is slave cylinder clearance. I have Tri-Ys on mine (I believe Genies or similar) and I had problems with the clutch line fitting coming in from below hitting one of the pipes. I just swapped the fitting and bleed nipple around so the fitting is up top, bleed is on the bottom. How do you get the air out you ask? Just pump it up, push the slave cylinder all the way back in, which pushes the air back up to the reservoir and then keep pumping pedal/pushing cylinder back till you get all the air out. Works fine for me. The bleed nipple is only there to plug the hole.

 

I researched this countless times to come up with the cheapest/simplest way, I seriously looked at cable (as I didn't want to stuff around with pedal boxes) and I did go hydraulic in the end.

 

Sent from my CPH1920 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

Thanks to you both for the excellent feedback & now you alone could of saved me thousands & obviously made my wife happy & saved myself countless head in hands,  thinking "F" this.

Shall  I chime on in with my amateur hour input. 

The T5 did have a Z in it F4ZR,the flywheel tooth count differently  sounds familiar, the T5 had 300 lb of torque rating my motor 470 lb but some advice I got ther, was as long as I'm not doing massive burn outs or thrashing it changing down it would have been OK 🤔🙄 probably not 😭🤣.

My tri-y's kinda looked like heaps of clearance cause quite low (I'll add a photo )

At present just got rebuilt Fmx but just feel I want some form of overdrive, AOD transmission out of the question & on Trademe there's another Transmission Ford 6R80 6 speed that they've adapted to be bolt onto SBF.

Can't really afford latest Tremec TKX ,emailed place in USA for complete package in clutch etc, came to $8300 nzd if that's not including GST when lands in NZ.

Then the whole Hydraulic vs cable dilemma would arise again & obviously hydraulic is the way. 

Manual fun all day long but even just some form of something moving on from 3spd & suppose diff ratio comes into play also, which is 8" 3.23

All so added couple pic's of Ford 6R80

thanks again for the invaluable feedback 👍💯💥

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4 minutes ago, 408WPN said:

but even just some form of something moving on from 3spd & suppose diff ratio comes into play also, which is 8" 3.23

 

what's the rev range of the engine(cam being the main thing) 

 

with 3.23 ratio in the diff, it's probably only doing 2600-2700 at 100kmh, this isn't terrible and is what the manual (4 speed) XEs had with a 351 from memory. 

 

if your cam/engine combo only revs to say 6500rpm then it probably makes bucket loads of torque at idle and may suit a 2.92 diff ratio. (only brings revs down to 2300 ish at 100kmh though.)
 

i'd just live with it as is. if it's working well, and a good combo it's probably not worth changing for overdrive

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6 minutes ago, deankdx said:

 

what's the rev range of the engine(cam being the main thing) 

 

with 3.23 ratio in the diff, it's probably only doing 2600-2700 at 100kmh, this isn't terrible and is what the manual (4 speed) XEs had with a 351 from memory. 

 

if your cam/engine combo only revs to say 6500rpm then it probably makes bucket loads of torque at idle and may suit a 2.92 diff ratio. (only brings revs down to 2300 ish at 100kmh though.)
 

i'd just live with it as is. if it's working well, and a good combo it's probably not worth changing for overdrive

Yeah not sure on rev range etc but have added a pic of cam specs. 

Screenshot_20210822_163905_com.android.chrome.jpg.32318012f6f58185e51e4921a7dff9fb.jpg

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That's quite a mild cam for your application, should have unbelievable midrange and will be a great street motor. I think it'd be all done by 6000 rpm, and being a stroker, you wouldn't want to turn it too hard anyway.

 

Headers look like they'll clear the slave cylinder and lines, so all good there.

 

Here's mine

 

6a06b72be47204f577a26bcd7261bf27.jpg

 

 

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i had a brief read over - I've got a 408 with a t56 mangun and hydraulic clutch, go hydrualic if you can, but its costly exercise, I don't use any of the standard gear but the hydraulic pedal box - better flywheel, FC holden master cylc (standard ford isn't enough even bored out) custom mounts, custom pedal stop (must do this or you'll blow out the seals on the slave cylc  - I did it sucks) tilton throw out bearing (slave) i used malwood, and dellow slaves both leaked, pay the money once and do it right, tilton was self adjusting no spacer bull s*** all built into the design was a threaded shaft - solved all my problems- sounds like you have power similar to mine - its costly but now its all perfect 

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8 minutes ago, BGDAV said:

i had a brief read over - I've got a 408 with a t56 mangun and hydraulic clutch, go hydrualic if you can, but its costly exercise, I don't use any of the standard gear but the hydraulic pedal box - better flywheel, FC holden master cylc (standard ford isn't enough even bored out) custom mounts, custom pedal stop (must do this or you'll blow out the seals on the slave cylc  - I did it sucks) tilton throw out bearing (slave) i used malwood, and dellow slaves both leaked, pay the money once and do it right, tilton was self adjusting no spacer bull s*** all built into the design was a threaded shaft - solved all my problems- sounds like you have power similar to mine - its costly but now its all perfect 

Awesome thanks for the tips, comes in very handy  & also Google the Tilton bearing, good stuff 🤘

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31 minutes ago, BGDAV said:

i had a brief read over - I've got a 408 with a t56 mangun and hydraulic clutch, go hydrualic if you can, but its costly exercise, I don't use any of the standard gear but the hydraulic pedal box - better flywheel, FC holden master cylc (standard ford isn't enough even bored out) custom mounts, custom pedal stop (must do this or you'll blow out the seals on the slave cylc  - I did it sucks) tilton throw out bearing (slave) i used malwood, and dellow slaves both leaked, pay the money once and do it right, tilton was self adjusting no spacer bull s*** all built into the design was a threaded shaft - solved all my problems- sounds like you have power similar to mine - its costly but now its all perfect 

Is this what slave cylinder on FC looks like,abit gay looking, possibly cause holden part, also tilton throw bearing probably different part  number for your T56 compared to T5 WC🤔

Screenshot_20210822-224202_Chrome.jpg

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Just now, BGDAV said:

Yep that’s the one you need , the Ford stuff doesn’t work for the bore size needed for the slave cylinder - need custom mount but it’s all doable 

Thanks, just when ever but no hurry could you send me photos of custom mounts & pedal to please, cheers 

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1 minute ago, jca25 said:

With the pedal box I would use the Auto pedal box and see if u can find a rare spares shop that has one these kits or maybe someone online and fit it bb4240528bd4b99ba0ca0e512152da7c.jpg

Sent from my SM-A125F using Tapatalk
 

Thanks have sourced Xe hydraulic pedal box, should do the job 🤞

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On 8/22/2021 at 10:13 PM, BGDAV said:

i had a brief read over - I've got a 408 with a t56 mangun and hydraulic clutch, go hydrualic if you can, but its costly exercise, I don't use any of the standard gear but the hydraulic pedal box - better flywheel, FC holden master cylc (standard ford isn't enough even bored out) custom mounts, custom pedal stop (must do this or you'll blow out the seals on the slave cylc  - I did it sucks) tilton throw out bearing (slave) i used malwood, and dellow slaves both leaked, pay the money once and do it right, tilton was self adjusting no spacer bull s*** all built into the design was a threaded shaft - solved all my problems- sounds like you have power similar to mine - its costly but now its all perfect 

Hey just reading over this, is the XE brake booster & brake master still OK to use, it's just clutch master needs to be a FC HOLDEN... I understand why now it's about the bloody bore size 

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On 8/22/2021 at 11:00 PM, BGDAV said:

Yep that’s the one you need , the Ford stuff doesn’t work for the bore size needed for the slave cylinder - need custom mount but it’s all doable 

Hey BGDAV, aren't I clever, I managed to quote my own post 🤣

Hey um... did you have to change your shifter location 1 2 or 3. 

Hope I don't have to use #1 shifter location, it's $455 USD for a mid shifter. 

I'll fork out for that if I have to as want to keep my bench seat 

Screenshot_20210911_150828.jpg

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