Jump to content
Outback Jack

EL ecu upgrade to EA-ED and XG. Correct base timing setting.

Recommended Posts

Ok guys, Outback Jack here. :)

Now a few of you guys have converted your earlier EA-ED and XG's to an EL ecu and maybe a j3 chip tune as well.

 

Now when I first did mine, I was told to leave the timing as per Standard XG timing, which is 10 BTDC.

 

Later I was told 0 degrees or TDC as per EL ecu.

 

Now we all know that EA-ED and XG run 10BTDC and there is a TDC timing mark and a IGN mark which is 10BTDC and where you set the timing in base timing mode.

 

On an EL there is only TDC timing mark or 0 degrees BTDC which is where you set the base timing.

 

I just wanted to know from other people on here, where have you set your base timing after an EL ecu conversion?

With or without j3.

 

I am being told that EA-ED and XG are exactly the same base timing as EL.

Which is not right.

 

To my logic 0 degrees or TDC would be the Base timing required as the motors are basically the same but the ECU has been changed and thus changing the base timing to suit is required.

 

Also that by running the standard EA-ED and XG base timing of 10BTDC would mean the timing is +10 degrees through the whole timing curve as EL has a base timing of 0 or TDC.

 

Interested in what others have done and which timing is correct in this situation.

 

Cheers!

 

Jack.

 

Sent from my S21 using Tapatalk

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This could be interesting Jas.

Now i have to go backwards on a au race and run a ea ecu with a el dizzy, so this would in a sense be drama, will i end up with or not in ur knowledge?

Cheers Jason

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This could be interesting Jas.

Now i have to go backwards on a au race and run a ea ecu with a el dizzy, so this would in a sense be drama, will i end up with or not in ur knowledge?

Cheers Jason

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


EA run TFI dizzy, EL run TFI dizzy, so that's ok. EA ecu will want base timing of 10BTDC regardless of motor, but I'm not familiar with AU motor. I take it they only have a 0 degree or TDC timing mark.
In that case, get a piece of string, go around the crank. Take string and measure length.
Then divide Length by 36
This will give you the distance of ten degrees of timing.
Put white mark that distance to right of original timing mark on balancer and when in base timing mode, line the new mark on balancer with original TDC marker and you will be at 10BTDC.

I have a digital timing light which is even easier. Increase timing on light to 10 degrees advanced and mark spot on the motor, then return light to 0 and align new mark with original crank marker.Done.

Sent from my S21 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure what's going on with my ute.
For an experiment I pulled the j3 chip and just ran the EL XR6 ecu.
Tried it with stock 10BTDC of XG and ran good.
Tried with 0 degrees or TDC of EL and was a lil more hesitant and ran a lil warmer, but still OK.
Have set back to 10BTDC and going to take it for a longer drive and see how it goes.
I'm trying to see if it will go into Lean cruise mode but so far not much luck.

Trial and error at this point. AFRs are staying in the 14's at cruise, so not leaning out or running rich.


Sent from my S21 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Took ute for an 80km drive and it's running better but problem was WBO2 sensor setting. Now set NBsim (narrowband simulator) for ecu with a 0-1V range instead of default 0-5V.

Seems to run good at 10BTDC but still not sure that's where it should be set.

Anyone, anyone, anyone.... ???.

Sent from my S21 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Jack, you have an aftermarket cam in it yeah? Then the answer to the timing question is.... "whatever the engine wants"

 

The cam events dictate how efficient the cylinder filling is, and this directly affects where the optimal ignition timing should be set. The more cam you give it, the later in the rpm range the peak cylinder filling (ie: torque) will occur, which is also where the most timing should be pulled out relative to the basic rpm ramp.

 

So in short, a bigger cam will take more initial and less total timing. If there's a way of breaking into the J3 and doing this (I have zero experience with them) that would put you on the right path I think.

 

 

Edit: in extra short, a different cam means you should throw the stock timing out the window.

Sent from my CPH1920 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Outback Jack, do you have access to an EL harmonic balancer?

 

Is it possible, they're marked differently?

- ie, an EL balancer TDC mark, is actually the same as an ED/XG balancer 10degrees mark?

 

Could it also be, that the computer pulls out timing differently?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey Jack, you have an aftermarket cam in it yeah? Then the answer to the timing question is.... "whatever the engine wants"
 
The cam events dictate how efficient the cylinder filling is, and this directly affects where the optimal ignition timing should be set. The more cam you give it, the later in the rpm range the peak cylinder filling (ie: torque) will occur, which is also where the most timing should be pulled out relative to the basic rpm ramp.
 
So in short, a bigger cam will take more initial and less total timing. If there's a way of breaking into the J3 and doing this (I have zero experience with them) that would put you on the right path I think.
 
 
Edit: in extra short, a different cam means you should throw the stock timing out the window.
Sent from my CPH1920 using Tapatalk
 
 
 
 
Yeah Gerg, I have a 222825 crow cam in her., mild Stage one cam.
It seems happy enough at 10BTDC.
I was just hoping to get the base timing to stock, so I have a good reference point for tuning.
I just didn't want to have too much timing wound in and have the ecu fighting the timing. I also have no knock sensor being XG, so didn't want to be detonating and not know it, my exhaust is pretty loud so hard to hear pinging. Lol

I can play with spark timing with the j3 but I'm a bit away from that just yet.
Still learning how everything works.
The knock table on the j3 is set all over to 50, but the EL XR6 stock tune pulls it gradually and ends up at 50.

I like it set at 10BTDC but it's what the ECU wants I am more interested in.


Sent from my S21 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[mention=1138]Outback Jack[/mention], do you have access to an EL harmonic balancer?   Is it possible, they're marked differently?

- ie, an EL balancer TDC mark, is actually the same as an ED/XG balancer 10degrees mark?

 

Could it also be, that the computer pulls out timing differently?

 

 

Yeah Dave EL harmonic balancer is different. Mark is off to the Right to line up with marker off to right for TDC marker on EL timing cover. But TDC is TDC regardless of where the markers are. I just helped a guy awhile back where someone had put an EL timing cover on an ED or XG motor and he couldn't get it running. Still had an ED/XG balancer, so it was a bit of a head fark. Lol

I told him the 10BTDC mark or IGN on the motor was roughly at 12 o'clock, and he sorted it from there.

But lining the ED/XG balancer mark up with an EL timing cover makes it horribly retarded.

 

I just wanted to know if it was supposed to be 10BTDC or TDC on my XG motor with EL ecu so when I get to tuning I know if I'm advanced running 10BTDC base timing or that's spot on.

If it is supposed to be at TDC or 0degrees, then I would be 10 degrees advanced and have to take that into account when tuning.

Don't worry I have been asking this question for a month at t.i. performance and can't get a straight answer.

First time I asked it was keep XG 10BTDC.

Next time I asked it was TDC like EL.

Then it was ' as long as it doesn't ping'.

Then.....

They reakon the base timing of EA-ED and EL are exactly the same.

 

Sent from my S21 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ran the XG ute 110km today at 10BTDC base timing with Stock EL XR6 ecu.
Fuel consumption was pretty average but performed ok. 1/3 tank to 150km mostly highway.
AFR was around 14-14.5. at 110km/hr.

Just wondering if I should set it at TDC- 0degrees and see how she goes.
Just before I change sensors etc and use the stock EL XR6 ecu as a base line for testing.



Sent from my S21 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I had a look at the spark maps in the.bin file for ED/XG or 3DAC and at 600rpm it is at 14BTDC.
I had a look in the .bin file for EL XR6 or 6TAC and at 600rpm it is at 14BTDC.

So logically at around idle of 700-750rpm the timing should be around 15-18BTDC max.

I have a digital timing light, so I can idle the ute with base timing set at 10btdc, which it is now...and if the idle timing is around 15-18btdc, then it's all good.

If it is higher by roughly 10 degrees or around 22-30btdc , then the base timing is wrong and needs to be set at TDC.

The EL ecu wants to see TDC as its base timing. It ASSUMES this is correct.

The timing is controlled off the ecu, BUT only from the reference point of the base timing. So it can't actually see what the base timing is, it can only add and subtract from the initial or base timing based on all its inputs.

See the problem is EL models have a knock sensor and the ecu will pull timing if detonation is detected.
EA-ED and XG don't have a knock sensor so the base timing is CRITICAL., when running an EL ecu.

I checked the j3 tune and they get around this by limiting timing to 50btdc.
The EL stock tune pulls timing gradually depending on knock input.

I'm pretty sure tomorrow I will find it is TDC that is the correct way to set timing on EA-ED and XG running an EL ecu.

I am dissapointed that so called tuning experts....
1. Don't know base timing on EA-ED+XG is 10btdc and that EL base timing of TDC ,IS different.....by 10 degrees.

2. That running 10 degrees too advanced on an EA-ED+XG while running an EL ecu is dangerous, due to there being no knock sensor to pull timing due to detonation.
If the limiting for timing is 50btdc......then add 10 degrees to that and your at 60btdc before timing is retarded.

Food for thought.

Sent from my S21 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rightio,
Just did a comparison look at the Spark MBT tables between the stock EL XR6 tune and my Custom j3 tune.

Standard EL XR6 ecu timing at 600rpm is 14btdc and at 900rpm is 15.5btdc.

Custom j3 tune timing at 600rpm is 15btdc and at 900rpm is 16.5btdc.

So with Stock EL XR6 ecu and no chip at idle it has to be about 14.5-15btdc.
With j3 chip I would expect around 15.5-16btdc at idle.

So will see what shows up at 10btdc base timing and Obtdc or TDC base timing when at idle.

Sent from my S21 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rightio,
Just did a comparison look at the Spark MBT tables between the stock EL XR6 tune and my Custom j3 tune.

Standard EL XR6 ecu timing at 600rpm is 14btdc and at 900rpm is 15.5btdc.

Custom j3 tune timing at 600rpm is 15btdc and at 900rpm is 16.5btdc.

So with Stock EL XR6 ecu and no chip at idle it has to be about 14.5-15btdc.
With j3 chip I would expect around 15.5-16btdc at idle.

So will see what shows up at 10btdc base timing and Obtdc or TDC base timing when at idle.

Sent from my S21 using Tapatalk


Ok, was just in the garage tinkering.

Now first up let's get this 100% correct.

When replacing the ecu in an EA-ED+XG with an EL ecu, the CORRECT timing is TDC or 0 degrees.
With or without j3, it is a FACT.
End of story.

You can see this easily by looking at the timing at idle.
If you left your timing at 10btdc as per EA-ED+XG and put the EL ecu in, with or without j3 chip, you are running 10 degrees too advanced through the entire rev range.

If you have a digital timing light you will see the idle timing is around 30btdc.
It should be in the 15-20btdc range.

I searched high and low for this answer and it was right in front of me.
Don't let anyone tell you otherwise and if you want to safely run your motor on EA-ED+XG with an EL ecu.

TDC as base timing.

Thanks to my Equus digital tach advance timing light for confirming my theory.









Sent from my S21 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×