The sound of anti-pump up lifters??

[wagoon 2,429]

So I understand that anti-pump up lifters make a noise but what I would like to know is what is that sound? Also when and how is the sound heard, is it mainly heard a idle and very light throttle for example? Reason I ask is my wagon has what I would call a "constant lifter ticking" sound at idle and when the engine is lightly revved the sound speeds up but does not get louder. The car also has a slight rough/lopey idle but the car is smooth to drive at any throttle position with no hesitation and has plenty of pull for a 200ci in a manual wagon. The guy I bought the car off had no info on what had been done to the car, so now that I am able to drive it I am starting to notice a few things.

 

[ando76 4,354]

Is it just one lifter you are hearing or all 12?  They can be noisy little feckers those anti pump up but If the rocker gear is standard I would doubt that it has enough cam to warrant the use of anti-pump up lifters - which are mainly used on hydraulic engines that see a high revs consistently. 

 

If the engine has sat for awhile there is a good chance that one of the lifters is having a bit of a hissy fit - or is on the way out.  Is the engine oil nice and clean?  what does the inside of the engine look like.  If its black as the ace of spades and all grungy then I would say sticky lifter.  Tin of dodgy old engine flush and a couple of oil changes may fix is - as may a good hard flogging if the engine has decent oil pressure.  Go for a squirt up Cunningham's Gap.  That should fix her. 

[gerg 10,871]

Can't imagine anyone bothering to install anti pump-ups in a cooking variety 200 cube. Probably more like worn lifters or dirty check valves in them. Try a bit of engine flush or lifter quiet. Failing that, cam and lifter swap (or complete 250 swap).

[wagoon 2,429]

I am not sure if its one or all lifter, kind of sounds like one thought. I haven't taken anything off the engine, just fixed the stuff required to get regoed. The oil was black so I  have changed it for penrite hpr30 and a fresh filter. I have used straight diesel as an oil flush in the past but I care about this engine so I don't know if its a good idea? I like your idea of Cunningham's gap Ando, there are plenty of nice roads around that area to give it a bit of a workout as well.

Greg you would be surprised how big they cruising scene is in south east queensland. I know of people building cars just so they could cruise down to the gold coast, pose for a bit and cruise home. These people modify cars without much thought for what is worth while, they just "want to look cool". This wagon had loose exhaust bolts so I'm guessing that it had an exhaust that had been removed and the standard stuff put back on. The way the car drives tells me it is not a standard 200ci, it wouldn't surprise me if its actually a 250 with 3.3 litre stickers all over it.

[ando76 4,354]

That sounds more like it, probably a bit of a sleeper thing happening with the 200ci stickers.  either way engine flush and filter changes for a bit and see what happens.  worse comes to worse - stick the roller cam motor in.  bahahaha

[wagoon 2,429]

So have you heard of using straight diesel for engine flush? I was told to use straight diesel by a mechanic years ago so don't know if its still relevant now or not. The idea behind it was that the diesel contains detergents and hydro carbons which helps dislodge the crap, I have used it on quite a few cars and never had dramas but then I have never owned those cars long enough for the dramas to present themselves.

Down here people like to drive standard 6 cylinders that have had a little tickle. The cars have the "gt look" suspension and put venetians in the windows. The slower the car and the more standard looking the better, usually with a manual gearbox. This car came as below. Thats the only reason I asked about the anti-pump ups cause the car just seems to fit that scene and the way the car shakes at idle, even looking at the engine at idle it looks like its running rough.

 

[ando76 4,354]

I'd just use a quality brand engine flush - I have some liquid moly stuff here but I have never used it - but their other products are good.

 

Not real sure on the diesel tho - sounds a bit dodge to me - but hey whatever works.

[wagoon 2,429]

ok will have a look for a shop bought oil flush. Thanks for your input

[gerg 10,871]

I wouldn't use straight diesel in a flat-tappet motor: not enough lube quality to keep the cam and lobes happy. Maybe dilute the existing oil 25% max.

[BBS XE 160]

The only way I've fixed them is to pull the lifters and clean the crap out of them. If it's been sitting for a while, try driving the tits off it first. HPR30 is very very thick when it's cold.

[wagoon 2,429]

Sorry greg I should have explained the diesel thing better. I was told to use 100ml of diesel for every 1 litre of oil. If the oil is full drain a bit out normally around half a litre then use the above ratio for the actual amount of oil in the engine. Pour the diesel in when the engine is cold go for a very short drive to warm the oil then drop oil while still warm. I normally use the diesel once just after buying a car, where I do a triple oil change. I place about 200ml of diesel in the oil that the car came with. Drop it and fill with oil and diesel to the above ratio of 100ml/litre. Drop that oil and fill again with no diesel. Go for a 100-150km cruise come home and drop oil. Then fill once more and drive until oil needs changing as per normal servicing. All the above oil changes I change the oil filter as well.

BBS yeah that oil is quite thick. I drove the car for about 100kms yesterday which consisted of 70% highway. I went for a spirited drive after about 70kms which raised the temp up to half on the guage from 1/4 then cruised to bring temp back to normal. Even after that it still ticked at the same rate and same noise level.

I will flush the engine this weekend and go from there.

[ando76 4,354]

You haven't got a bent pushrod in there have you?  could be causing a bit of slop on the rocker?

 

Photo with tappet cover off please??? want to see engine condition.  Oh and you could pull a lifter out and chuck up a photo of the circlip on the lifter - they are usually different for anti-pump up. 

[gerg 10,871]

Sounds like a pretty good way of cleaning up a dirty engine, also ATF or Hydraulic oil works well in small amounts. Be careful on engines with some k's on the clock: you can do damage by cleaning them up too much. As the piston and bore wears, carbon builds up around there and takes up the clearance. If you go and dissolve that away, you end up with big clearances, a smoky motor and bad compression. I've seen it first hand on a tired old Toyota Crown that my mate shoved some Mobil 1 into. It cleaned it up so much that the oil from the blow-by could be caught in a milk bottle and tipped back into the engine after a few hours driving. It idled on about 4-1/2 cylinders.

[wagoon 2,429]

Ando, I dont have a bloody clue what a dead lifter or bent pushrod sounds like as Im sure they have different sounds. I dont have enough mechanical experience to know the difference, I just know what doesnt sound right and can usually figure out a likely source for the problem, sepecifics are beyond my capabilities. But looks like I going to have to have a look inside to make sure.

Greg your spot on about cleaning to well, thats always my concern when doing it. Usually I go off the condition of the engine as to wether or not to use the diesel. I have used my method on at least 7 cars that I can remember and it has never caused any dramas as you described, so I dont know if its dumb luck or not. I will say that it isnt cheap especially on something like my landcruiser that takes 7 1/2 litres of oil.

[gerg 10,871]

One dead lifter at idle will make a cyclic noise at about the same rhythm as you'd clap your hands giving applause. Weird analogy but there you go. If all of the lifters were crook, it would sound more like that bit of plastic shoved in the wheel spokes of your bike when you were a kid. A bent pushrod would be same as a crook lifter with a misfire in time with it, heard through the exhaust.

[wagoon 2,429]

Greg thats a perfect example. But now Im standing at work talking to myself and clapping, people already think Im weird now they think Im crazy as well.

There is definately no misfire but the rhythm of the ticking sounds about right - he says as he starts clapping again. Now when I go home Im going to start my car pop the bonnet and start clapping, hopefully the neighbours will think Ive finally lost it and move. I might even start making funny noises as well.

Thanks greg that helped me understand it really well.

[gerg 10,871]

Lol what have I created

[wagoon 2,429]

Some thing I have noticed when I started the car this afternoon when I got home. The ticking is louder the warmer the engine gets. On first hit of the key there was one tick then silence, after about 2 minutes of warm up I could here the ticking much more clearly. So I went and grabbed a pry bar that looks like a really big flat blade screw driver and stuck it on the engine for a listen. So when it was on the rocker cover it all sounded good with no different sounds from front to back side to side in about 10 different position. Then I stuck the blade on the cylinder head in the plug cutouts, just below the plugs. The first 2 cylinders sounded smooth and quiet the 3rd I could clearly here the ticking, 4&5 sounded louder than 1&2 but no ticking and 6 sounded the same as 1&2.

So is it worth doing an oil flush or a cruise with the engine under constant load from driving up a constant steep gradient? I don't want to hurt this engine and would rather repair it than wipe a lobe of the camshaft and possibly destroy and engine. Does replacing the lifters mean replacing the camshaft for safety sake?

[ausxb 0]

Replacing the lifters means you must replace the cam as both the lifter surface and cam lobes have to mate to each other when you run the cam in or you will wear out your new lifters on the old cam.  My guess is you have a stuffed lifter and when you check the cam you'll find it very worn as well. This was common to these engines even back when they were in warranty. Wish I had a dollar for everyone I did back then. Hope this Helps.

[Mr Polson 10,214]

Easy way to check the lift of your cam/lifter, lift the rocker cover, pull out the spark plugs and rotate the motor watching how high each rocker/pushrod goes. Also, wiggling the rockers may show, if they move a lot, its probably a wiped lobe/bad lifter.

[wagoon 2,429]

Thanks to Ando for his help I checked the clearances and only #4 exhaust is showing play. There was plenty of sludge so will try a flush and see how it goes. Thanks to everyone for your input it has helped a lot.

[wagoon 2,429]

Update

 

Problem has been solved, it was a worn rocker. The lifters turned out to be standard not anti-pump ups but are in basically brand new condition.

 

Massive thank you to Ando76. He gave a lot of his time and knowledge to help me with the frustration of half the length of Australia between us making it even more difficult. I would never have been able to do this without his generous help.