Crossflow Borg Warner Starter Slipping, Grinding and Dying

[Harrison Kotrolos 31]

Hi All,

 

I'm chasing my tail on this one.

 

I'm on my THIRD starter motor because I love killing them. 

 

I will preface this with I know I've sheared a couple of teeth on the flexplate, but it doesn't explain my issues.

 

My car just hate's starting, I've tried adjusting the shifter linkage because I thought maybe the inhibitator switch isn't lining up, I've tried Bosch Starters, Chinese Starters and all.

 

In no apparent pattern or order I have the following issues, the issues do seem to get worse the hotter the car is:

• Starter grinds against flexplate
• Starter starts turning the engine then stops and cuts all power to car
• Starter starts turning engine and then just starts spinning

 

This happens whether I'm in Park or Neutral. I've taken it to my mechanic who actually backed the starter out and rotated it a little which improved it slightly.

 

I've got a BW35, behind a Crossy 4.1.

 

I'm planning on ordering the following to get a fresh FlexPlate with all the teeth on it https://automatictransmission.com.au/shop/ford-xy-xa-xb-xc-xd-xe-xf-6cyl-borg-warner-35-and-40-flexplate/?srsltid=AfmBOoqFVDdLaWauWTbQEhwmvDvaiDNEZ6lWfIhV1IYaU88SxR78ykF0#

 

Will upload a video shortly.

 

A couple of questions to fire:

• Would there be different starters for C4 or BW crossflows?
• Would there be different flexplate teeth count that I should watch out for?

 

Any other help or guidance would be awesome.

 

Thanks,

Harry

 

 

 

[Harrison Kotrolos 31]

Apologies forgot to add.

 

Even if it does start to crank properly, it's so damn loud and sounds like it's grinding itself to death.

 

I've also changed the starter relay, new 30 AMP wiring for earth and power to switch connector on starter, new battery and battery is at 13.4V

 

Google drive to videos below (because they are massive for some reason) First video is in PARK second is in NEUTRAL

 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KICR7HD7o51hgR22cT9haI4Ro9dvL-TT?usp=drive_link

 

 

[deankxf 20,743]

1 hour ago, Harrison Kotrolos said:

Apologies forgot to add.

 

Even if it does start to crank properly, it's so damn loud and sounds like it's grinding itself to death.

 

I've also changed the starter relay, new 30 AMP wiring for earth and power to switch connector on starter, new battery and battery is at 13.4V

 

Google drive to videos below (because they are massive for some reason) First video is in PARK second is in NEUTRAL

 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KICR7HD7o51hgR22cT9haI4Ro9dvL-TT?usp=drive_link

 

 

 

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sounds to me by description that the ring gear is fubar though, and changing flexplate would fix it. 

starters are same for BW and C4 as far as i am concerned, i've swapped a few in the past. 

tooth count i doubt would be different but it's likely not going to be the same flexplate for both seeing the bw 35 holds on to torque converter with 3 bolts from memory rather than 4 nuts 

[Harrison Kotrolos 31]

39 minutes ago, deankxf said:

 

your video isn't public, 

You need access

Request access, or switch to an account with access.

 

sounds to me by description that the ring gear is fubar though, and changing flexplate would fix it. 

starters are same for BW and C4 as far as i am concerned, i've swapped a few in the past. 

tooth count i doubt would be different but it's likely not going to be the same flexplate for both seeing the bw 35 holds on to torque converter with 3 bolts from memory rather than 4 nuts 

 

The link should be fixed now, my good man.

Yeah understood.  My flexplate holds on with four bolts onto the torque converter.

I also thought it was flexplate, which in some instances it does sound like it.

But it grinds in any position or cuts out and dies but hopefully, the videos show that it's not just jumping, it's just going nuts.

[deankxf 20,743]

6 minutes ago, Harrison Kotrolos said:

 

The link should be fixed now, my good man.

Yeah understood.  My flexplate holds on with four bolts onto the torque converter.

I also thought it was flexplate, which in some instances it does sound like it.

But it grinds in any position or cuts out and dies but hopefully, the videos show that it's not just jumping, it's just going nuts.

 

next time the starter motor is out (5minute job really)

see if its' loose. i have heard of flex plate bolts coming loose from the crank, and i also have had one instance where the rivets holding the ring gear on were loose. (most are welded but some were riveted as below) 

also My Dad's leyland V8 had cracked a flexplate once which may put it out of alignment.

it's hard to say really. 

i downloaded your video, sounds terrible for sure 

[bear351c 10,356]

Had the bolts come loose on my old ZL land yacht. Sound was generally worse at idle, like a lifter/rocker rattle. Most engines will always stop at the same 1 or 2 places on the flywheel/flexplate, so if the teeth are munted they will usually be in the same spot next time you try an start it. It is a common issue on inline sixes.  If it struggles to crank when hot, thats a slightly different issue. Maybe timing, fuel evap related. Check timing is around 8 degrees, try 10, if the balancer has slipped, and try to move the fuel line away from any heat.

 

Let us know how ya get on. 

[Harrison Kotrolos 31]

15 hours ago, deankxf said:

 

next time the starter motor is out (5minute job really)

see if its' loose. i have heard of flex plate bolts coming loose from the crank, and i also have had one instance where the rivets holding the ring gear on were loose. (most are welded but some were riveted as below) 

also My Dad's leyland V8 had cracked a flexplate once which may put it out of alignment.

it's hard to say really. 

i downloaded your video, sounds terrible for sure 

 

Will pull the starter out on the weekend and check for play, yeah it sounds even worse in person. I've been dealing with it, but now it's just embarrsing when people are watching your car and your taking 10 minutes to start :) 

 

 

22 minutes ago, bear351c said:

Had the bolts come loose on my old ZL land yacht. Sound was generally worse at idle, like a lifter/rocker rattle. Most engines will always stop at the same 1 or 2 places on the flywheel/flexplate, so if the teeth are munted they will usually be in the same spot next time you try an start it. It is a common issue on inline sixes.  If it struggles to crank when hot, thats a slightly different issue. Maybe timing, fuel evap related. Check timing is around 8 degrees, try 10, if the balancer has slipped, and try to move the fuel line away from any heat.

 

Let us know how ya get on. 

 

Yep, I think I got two spots where they are munted and when the mechanic had a looked he said overall the teeth had all been worn bad. So will check for play to start but will probably pull the engine out to replace flexplate, I have to change the rear main seal also :( 

I have 12 degrees I think set on timing. Balancer is brand new, as the old one tore the outer ring from the inner hub on the dyno (Great fun)

Will need to make another post to show how it was done, but I'm one of those idiots who would die for the crossy and spent a bunch of money converting it to EFI and running a Haltech ECU with all the bells and whistles so I've been testing this with injectors off and on and problem is the same.

I have thought maybe the starter is damaged and then getting heat soaked sitting there and making the problem worse.
 

[deankxf 20,743]

2 hours ago, Harrison Kotrolos said:

 

Will pull the starter out on the weekend and check for play, yeah it sounds even worse in person. I've been dealing with it, but now it's just embarrsing when people are watching your car and your taking 10 minutes to start

 

 

 

Yep, I think I got two spots where they are munted and when the mechanic had a looked he said overall the teeth had all been worn bad. So will check for play to start but will probably pull the engine out to replace flexplate, I have to change the rear main seal also

I have 12 degrees I think set on timing. Balancer is brand new, as the old one tore the outer ring from the inner hub on the dyno (Great fun)

Will need to make another post to show how it was done, but I'm one of those idiots who would die for the crossy and spent a bunch of money converting it to EFI and running a Haltech ECU with all the bells and whistles so I've been testing this with injectors off and on and problem is the same.

I have thought maybe the starter is damaged and then getting heat soaked sitting there and making the problem worse.
 

the old FAT starter motors did have this issue called "poleing out" (pole) that i never understood what that meant(possibly a short in the armature) 
and that makes them weak and often was a result from being cooked by extractors.
the smaller E series/AU etc starter is a direct fit and cheap, but they also die from heat. (heat shield is advised for thrashing regularly etc though ,i built one once)

 

if it cranks slow, i'd say it's either starter or the wire going to it or the earth wire to the block need upgrading. 
 

the grinding noise, definitely teeth on the flywheel related one way or another. 

[Harrison Kotrolos 31]

48 minutes ago, deankxf said:

the old FAT starter motors did have this issue called "poleing out" (pole) that i never understood what that meant(possibly a short in the armature) 
and that makes them weak and often was a result from being cooked by extractors.
the smaller E series/AU etc starter is a direct fit and cheap, but they also die from heat. (heat shield is advised for thrashing regularly etc though ,i built one once)

 

if it cranks slow, i'd say it's either starter or the wire going to it or the earth wire to the block need upgrading. 
 

the grinding noise, definitely teeth on the flywheel related one way or another. 

Noice, so if you listen to the video's again you will also see/hear the starter start and then cut out and it all goes quite, no spinning or grinding. While I have an ECU all the original wiring is cranking the car and the ECU has no control on the starter or distributing power. Any thoughts on that one? Back connection in steering column? Dying inhibitor switch?

My plan for this weekend I think is follows

• Pull starter and take off transmission cover plate and inspect flexplate for play.
• Run clean new wiring with an external switch and relay and test starter on a separate circut.
• Test inhibitor switch.

[deankxf 20,743]

4 minutes ago, Harrison Kotrolos said:

Noice, so if you listen to the video's again you will also see/hear the starter start and then cut out and it all goes quite, no spinning or grinding. While I have an ECU all the original wiring is cranking the car and the ECU has no control on the starter or distributing power. Any thoughts on that one? Back connection in steering column? Dying inhibitor switch?

My plan for this weekend I think is follows

• Pull starter and take off transmission cover plate and inspect flexplate for play.
• Run clean new wiring with an external switch and relay and test starter on a separate circut.
• Test inhibitor switch.

cutting out while cranking could be a voltage drop issue. bad wires or loose connections. if you don't have to change anything for it to crank again then i'd go with that. but if you are wiggling the gear stick or key to make it crank again then i'd look there also. 

 

@SPArKy_Dave think of something else. but nothing is jumping out at me really. 

[Thom 6,694]

Do you have the sandwich plate between the block and the bellhousing, if you don't the starter spacing and position will be incorrect, if you are after a cheap hi torque starter anything from ea to bf falcon will fit crossflow

[SPArKy_Dave 9,235]

 

15 hours ago, deankxf said:

 

@SPArKy_Dave think of something else. but nothing is jumping out at me really. 

 

Need to see pics of the engine/trans installation, to comment properly

[Harrison Kotrolos 31]

16 minutes ago, SPArKy_Dave said:

 

 

Need to see pics of the engine/trans installation, to comment properly

This weirdo asking for pics..........

Let me know of any particular angle or view and I shall get them for you (won't be until the weekend though)

[deankxf 20,743]

3 hours ago, Harrison Kotrolos said:

This weirdo asking for pics..........

Let me know of any particular angle or view and I shall get them for you (won't be until the weekend though)

 

take a pic of these wires, could help.

1,starter to battery wire. +

2.battery - wire to engine block

3.passenger side bell housing to firewall has an earth that is used for the rest of the car normally. 

4. starter trigger wire, does it go to a relay? if so the wires/earth for the relay. 

 

those are points of interest i'd expect for sparkydave also.