86 XF Falcon Ute not starting

[deankxf 20,743]

2 hours ago, XF EDDIE said:

Does this mean I need a timing chain to?

 

 

is it rubbing on the timing case, if so it's definitely worth changing (i've had this before, engine still ran ok) 

 

it's worn, you are in there. if you are fixing it, change the timing chain.. that said, any with 200,000kms odd will be that worn and still work fine. 

 

they were pretty cheap when i bought one yonks ago under $50 rings a bell.. 

the cheapest i saw on ebay is this one, but it was a quick search and i don't know the brand (i'd always see what @SPArKy_Dave shows, as it will be the best quality he links)
$56 on ebay for NASAN brand?

[XF EDDIE 127]

34 minutes ago, deankxf said:

is it rubbing on the timing case, if so it's definitely worth changing (i've had this before, engine still ran ok) 

 

it's worn, you are in there. if you are fixing it, change the timing chain.. that said, any with 200,000kms odd will be that worn and still work fine. 

 

they were pretty cheap when i bought one yonks ago under $50 rings a bell.. 

the cheapest i saw on ebay is this one, but it was a quick search and i don't know the brand (i'd always see what @SPArKy_Dave shows, as it will be the best quality he links)
$56 on ebay for NASAN brand?

Yeah I saw the same one but was iffy about the quality. I'd rather buy once cry once. @SPArKy_Dave any recommendations?

[SPArKy_Dave 9,235]

IWIS or Romac (Rollmaster) usually do good chains.

Crow brand is one of the above, in a crow cams packet.

[XF EDDIE 127]

6 hours ago, SPArKy_Dave said:

IWIS or Romac (Rollmaster) usually do good chains.

Crow brand is one of the above, in a crow cams packet.

So that cheap one would be good or is it worth shelling out the extra coin

[XF EDDIE 127]

Also do I need a kit or just the chain?

[XF EDDIE 127]

It never ends. I’ve gone through two lifter pullers getting them out, fucked my harmonic balancer and now my distributor is seized. I pulled the hold down bolt and no dice, I pried on it with a screwdriver and it just bent the screwdriver. I’ve beat on it twisted it and swore at it. Any other suggestions before I get the oxy out?

[deankxf 20,743]

1 hour ago, XF EDDIE said:

It never ends. I’ve gone through two lifter pullers getting them out, fucked my harmonic balancer and now my distributor is seized. I pulled the hold down bolt and no dice, I pried on it with a screwdriver and it just bent the screwdriver. I’ve beat on it twisted it and swore at it. Any other suggestions before I get the oxy out?

 

this is all to SAVE A HEAD GASKET basically.. (which probably has its days numbered anyway(they don't last forever)

 

i'd say pull the head off.. you'll get HEAPS of access to everything, and it will have a new headgasket when refitted, and in the process if it all looks acceptable (bores, valves, corrosion in head etc) then you can do new valve stem seals if you feel like it and valve grind too. 
 

My brother couldn't get the dizzy out of his EB, i managed to just spray it and wiggle it 1mm at a time to eventually get it off, but he could have pulled the inlet manifold off (you could also) for more access for the price of a gasket (no idea what they cost these days)

[XF EDDIE 127]

12 minutes ago, deankxf said:

 

this is all to SAVE A HEAD GASKET basically.. (which probably has its days numbered anyway(they don't last forever)

 

i'd say pull the head off.. you'll get HEAPS of access to everything, and it will have a new headgasket when refitted, and in the process if it all looks acceptable (bores, valves, corrosion in head etc) then you can do new valve stem seals if you feel like it and valve grind too. 
 

My brother couldn't get the dizzy out of his EB, i managed to just spray it and wiggle it 1mm at a time to eventually get it off, but he could have pulled the inlet manifold off (you could also) for more access for the price of a gasket (no idea what they cost these days)

I managed to get a slight gap between the dissy and block so I might go at it some more tomorrow but honestly I’m regretting not taking the engine out. Getting access to the cam was simple enough and I even pulled it out enough to see the first lobe (completely rounded off) but it’s everything else that’s fighting me. With how sludgy the motor is I’m starting to wonder if it’s worth cracking it open and cleaning the shit out of it. The previous owner sure left some details out when it comes to how it was serviced as there is rtv everywhere especially on the timing cover bolts. At this point I’m too far in to pull the engine now so I’m just going to go deeper until I get that cam out. At least after I get the prick of a distributor out I’ll be on to reassembling the motor. What do you all think? Do I just go balls deep and clean out the motor or do I put the cam in, run an engine flush and send it?

[deankxf 20,743]

3 minutes ago, XF EDDIE said:

What do you all think? Do I just go balls deep and clean out the motor or do I put the cam in, run an engine flush and send it?

honestly, if it was mine.. i'd look for another engine and swap it. 

unless you want to keep it matching numbers, or want to learn, i'd pull it out and put it aside for later. 

 

now if it's full of CAM METAL and sludge, the sump/pick up ideally would be looked at/cleaned. got the sump off you should definitely check the bearings .(likely worn)

 

it becomes a question of how much punishment do you want to deal with? (i'd pull the engine, because i am not a fan of heaps of hunched over wrenching these days, up to you though)

[XF EDDIE 127]

30 minutes ago, deankxf said:

honestly, if it was mine.. i'd look for another engine and swap it. 

unless you want to keep it matching numbers, or want to learn, i'd pull it out and put it aside for later. 

 

now if it's full of CAM METAL and sludge, the sump/pick up ideally would be looked at/cleaned. got the sump off you should definitely check the bearings .(likely worn)

 

it becomes a question of how much punishment do you want to deal with? (i'd pull the engine, because i am not a fan of heaps of hunched over wrenching these days, up to you though)

Well my original reason for keeping the engine was that it was low kms and ran good. Well now I know that neither are true. Honestly I just want to get this thing driving and with how much of a pain in the ass this thing has been I’m starting to think this engine ain’t worth sinking money into. I had another look and now the cheapest crossflow is $600 and the cheapest cleavo is $1000 and with how hacked up this car is I’m feeling a little less bad about making it not original. I’ve already got the parts now so I’d be wasting money to toss em now but next time I’m taking your advice from the go.

[deankxf 20,743]

13 minutes ago, XF EDDIE said:

cheapest cleavo is $1000

that's likely going to need $4000 into it if it's just as worn, then you'd have the hassle of converting it (adds up to a pain in the ass for not enough gain.. well they sound good)

 

$600 "good running" crossflow is kind of cheap, when you factor in all the muck around. 

 

i used to buy a whole XF back 20yrs ago for $500 (rust free, 200,000kms) pull the motor and trans for my spares (doing 50,000kms a year) and sell off the parts and scrap the shell and diff  (used to get $200 or so for the parts and call the scrappers for the rest. 

 

these days it would be hard to justify buying a whole parts car (i'd consider that if doing a V8 conversion, to get the full everything.. might need to buy an accelerator cable only depending what it was from, then sell off unwanted bits and you'd get some of it back)

 

cost of parts are dear also now, so it's quite expensive to overhaul an engine. 

 

low kms on a lot of these era cars, 1980 to 1995 ish can be due to the odometer gear failing, you need to look at wear and tear on the carpet, steering wheel, console, door trim, door hinges and seats etc.. even wiper arms if sloppy indicate high kms. 

 

i have seen E series and AUs advertised lately with 180,000kms but when you read into the ad, it says motor has 180,000 car done 360,000 for eg.. the cars would be too worn for My liking with that many kms generally, lots of little things are a ticking time bomb around 400,000 ish in fords unless religiously maintained and cared for. 

[XF EDDIE 127]

10 hours ago, deankxf said:

that's likely going to need $4000 into it if it's just as worn, then you'd have the hassle of converting it (adds up to a pain in the ass for not enough gain.. well they sound good)

 

$600 "good running" crossflow is kind of cheap, when you factor in all the muck around. 

 

i used to buy a whole XF back 20yrs ago for $500 (rust free, 200,000kms) pull the motor and trans for my spares (doing 50,000kms a year) and sell off the parts and scrap the shell and diff  (used to get $200 or so for the parts and call the scrappers for the rest. 

 

these days it would be hard to justify buying a whole parts car (i'd consider that if doing a V8 conversion, to get the full everything.. might need to buy an accelerator cable only depending what it was from, then sell off unwanted bits and you'd get some of it back)

 

cost of parts are dear also now, so it's quite expensive to overhaul an engine. 

 

low kms on a lot of these era cars, 1980 to 1995 ish can be due to the odometer gear failing, you need to look at wear and tear on the carpet, steering wheel, console, door trim, door hinges and seats etc.. even wiper arms if sloppy indicate high kms. 

 

i have seen E series and AUs advertised lately with 180,000kms but when you read into the ad, it says motor has 180,000 car done 360,000 for eg.. the cars would be too worn for My liking with that many kms generally, lots of little things are a ticking time bomb around 400,000 ish in fords unless religiously maintained and cared for. 

Yeah this one had a dead odometer and worn out seat. I wish I got an XF back then too. Even 6 years ago people were basically giving them away. Now mine is considered a "good deal" and I still payed $800 for it plus another $500 in parts and it's still not on the road. Who knows maybe after I finish this cam swap she'll finally come good. Also in regards to all the shit in the engine I'm wondering if I put some kerosene in the sump and used the dissy to run the oil pump if that might clear it out or if that would harm anything? I'll do the same with fresh oil before putting the run in oil in to purge the kero but do you think this could harm the bearings?

[deankxf 20,743]

29 minutes ago, XF EDDIE said:

Yeah this one had a dead odometer and worn out seat. I wish I got an XF back then too. Even 6 years ago people were basically giving them away. Now mine is considered a "good deal" and I still payed $800 for it plus another $500 in parts and it's still not on the road. Who knows maybe after I finish this cam swap she'll finally come good. Also in regards to all the shit in the engine I'm wondering if I put some kerosene in the sump and used the dissy to run the oil pump if that might clear it out or if that would harm anything? I'll do the same with fresh oil before putting the run in oil in to purge the kero but do you think this could harm the bearings?

@Thom might have a better idea for the sump gunk, (Thom, this is the engine that has a worn out cam and lifters, so all that metal is somewhere also, probably gone through the oil pump at minimum or stuck in the screen?)

 

but i would avoid trying to suck it up the oil pump, 

 

if you put kero in the sump and you've got the timing case off now, you can probably get a bendy brush like thing in there (especially with timing chain/gear removed)

 

i'd be pulling the sump off, and checking further (oil pump, pick up screen, bearings etc) but it's a real pain to do in the car. (can be done apparently, but i'd never ever consider it again, we got one ALMOST out and gave up, but had enough access to what we wanted (change a big end bearing i think or rod and piston i can't remember)

 

for Me, i'd pull the engine out. and likely decide on a different engine fit. 

 

$1300 for a tidy ANYTHING isn't bad these days,  i consider $3000 on the road a pretty much minimum value for a reliable car, and going forward, if that car was going to be kept 3yrs, putting $10,000 into it's reliability if the rest of it is good will pay off in just being reliable and trouble free (generally) for 100,000kms  
100,000kms you'd be fitting idler arm or 2, and probably 6 tyres and front brake pads and oil and filter type stuff.. (and double the fuel of a modern small car) 

 

 

[Thom 6,694]

[mention=43]Thom[/mention] might have a better idea for the sump gunk, (Thom, this is the engine that has a worn out cam and lifters, so all that metal is somewhere also, probably gone through the oil pump at minimum or stuck in the screen?)
 
but i would avoid trying to suck it up the oil pump, 
 
if you put kero in the sump and you've got the timing case off now, you can probably get a bendy brush like thing in there (especially with timing chain/gear removed)
 
i'd be pulling the sump off, and checking further (oil pump, pick up screen, bearings etc) but it's a real pain to do in the car. (can be done apparently, but i'd never ever consider it again, we got one ALMOST out and gave up, but had enough access to what we wanted (change a big end bearing i think or rod and piston i can't remember)
 
for Me, i'd pull the engine out. and likely decide on a different engine fit. 
 
$1300 for a tidy ANYTHING isn't bad these days,  i consider $3000 on the road a pretty much minimum value for a reliable car, and going forward, if that car was going to be kept 3yrs, putting $10,000 into it's reliability if the rest of it is good will pay off in just being reliable and trouble free (generally) for 100,000kms  
100,000kms you'd be fitting idler arm or 2, and probably 6 tyres and front brake pads and oil and filter type stuff.. (and double the fuel of a modern small car) 
 
 

Flushing the sludge/ metal from the cam & lifters without pulling the sump/ cylinder head to clean out all the oil galleries and oil pump/ pickup will most likely be a death sentence for that engine, you can guarantee you will loosen and flush a large percentage of the gunk in the engine, but that's not the problem, it's what gets left behind that is now free to roam the engine until finds a nice oil gallery or oil pump pick up or oil return to plug up and cut off the oil supply to that area of the engine. Also if metal has been through the engine the oil pump needs to be inspected as the rotors and oil pressure relief need to be inspected for damage and the pump replaced if they are

[XF EDDIE 127]

20 minutes ago, Thom said:

3 hours ago, deankxf said:

[mention=43]Thom[/mention] might have a better idea for the sump gunk, (Thom, this is the engine that has a worn out cam and lifters, so all that metal is somewhere also, probably gone through the oil pump at minimum or stuck in the screen?)
 
but i would avoid trying to suck it up the oil pump, 
 
if you put kero in the sump and you've got the timing case off now, you can probably get a bendy brush like thing in there (especially with timing chain/gear removed)
 
i'd be pulling the sump off, and checking further (oil pump, pick up screen, bearings etc) but it's a real pain to do in the car. (can be done apparently, but i'd never ever consider it again, we got one ALMOST out and gave up, but had enough access to what we wanted (change a big end bearing i think or rod and piston i can't remember)
 
for Me, i'd pull the engine out. and likely decide on a different engine fit. 
 
$1300 for a tidy ANYTHING isn't bad these days,  i consider $3000 on the road a pretty much minimum value for a reliable car, and going forward, if that car was going to be kept 3yrs, putting $10,000 into it's reliability if the rest of it is good will pay off in just being reliable and trouble free (generally) for 100,000kms  
100,000kms you'd be fitting idler arm or 2, and probably 6 tyres and front brake pads and oil and filter type stuff.. (and double the fuel of a modern small car) 
 
 

Flushing the sludge/ metal from the cam & lifters without pulling the sump/ cylinder head to clean out all the oil galleries and oil pump/ pickup will most likely be a death sentence for that engine, you can guarantee you will loosen and flush a large percentage of the gunk in the engine, but that's not the problem, it's what gets left behind that is now free to roam the engine until finds a nice oil gallery or oil pump pick up or oil return to plug up and cut off the oil supply to that area of the engine. Also if metal has been through the engine the oil pump needs to be inspected as the rotors and oil pressure relief need to be inspected for damage and the pump replaced if they are

Well shit. This is starting to sound like an expensive spiral. The question is now do I just send it and hope for the best or is it guaranteed to fail? It is worth mentioning I have a pair of xh's and an el on standby if my engine grenades but I don't want to put a new cam and timing chain into an engine that's got a 80% chance of death, I also noticed that the oil thats in it now doesn't look too glittery with no large chunks or shavings so I'm a tad hopeful but with how fucked up this cam is I'm just scared of where all that metal went. Imma crack the oil filter open and post some photos of the material to give you a good idea on what's going on with this engine

[XF EDDIE 127]

Also would just flushing it with clean engine oil the way I described before be a good thing to do before the new cam?

[XF EDDIE 127]

Inox is the shit! I went at after letting it soak and out came the distributor and the camshaft and yep she's fucked. 3 of the lobes were completely round but the cam bearings and journals looked ok, granted not great but no gouging or scuffing from what I could see. I'm gonna give them a closer inspection before reassembly but all and all things are looking up!

[Thom 6,694]

Also would just flushing it with clean engine oil the way I described before be a good thing to do before the new cam?

Safest way to clean it if there's no metal in the filter is to use a higher detergent oil (like a diesel oil) and do 4 or 5 sub 1500km oil changes, it won't make the engine spotless inside but it will clean gradually and shouldn't dislodge anything big enough to cause damage, flushing fresh oil through the engine before firing it up with the new cam won't hurt anything and is a pretty good idea, make sure you use plenty of assembly/ break in lube on the cam and lifters when you install them

[deankxf 20,743]

1 hour ago, XF EDDIE said:

It is worth mentioning I have a pair of xh's and an el on standby if my engine grenades

are these on the road?

or were you thinking of doing an engine conversion (it's not something i'd consider anyway, too much work.)

[XF EDDIE 127]

30 minutes ago, Thom said:

1 hour ago, XF EDDIE said:

Also would just flushing it with clean engine oil the way I described before be a good thing to do before the new cam?

Safest way to clean it if there's no metal in the filter is to use a higher detergent oil (like a diesel oil) and do 4 or 5 sub 1500km oil changes, it won't make the engine spotless inside but it will clean gradually and shouldn't dislodge anything big enough to cause damage, flushing fresh oil through the engine before firing it up with the new cam won't hurt anything and is a pretty good idea, make sure you use plenty of assembly/ break in lube on the cam and lifters when you install them

Just wondering when I do the oil changes do I add an engine oil flush as well?

[XF EDDIE 127]

1 minute ago, deankxf said:

are these on the road?

or were you thinking of doing an engine conversion (it's not something i'd consider anyway, too much work.)

The el is on the road and very reliable (The lady I bought it from didn't know jack shit about mechanical stuff so she had that thing looked over religiously, like she would stop driving it once it reached the oil change interval untill it had a service) and one of the xh's is roadworthy also. The other xh is in good nick mechanicaly but the trey is gone, if need be I could get a dodgy rwc and a tub liner but it's definitely on the bottom of the list. If I engine swap this thing it's either getting another Crossy or a v8

[Thom 6,694]

Just wondering when I do the oil changes do I add an engine oil flush as well?

No, do not use oil flush it will cause the same problems dumping kerosene in the sump would, the goal is to clean the engine gently and slowly, anything that rapidly speeds that process up is what causes problems, the only safe way to clean an engine fast is to dissemble it

[SPArKy_Dave 9,235]

On 7/12/2024 at 9:42 PM, XF EDDIE said:

access to the cam was simple enough and I even pulled it out enough to see the first lobe

 

Doing this ^, without first removing the distributor, is what's likely jammed it.

 

[XF EDDIE 127]

1 hour ago, SPArKy_Dave said:

 

Doing this ^, without first removing the distributor, is what's likely jammed it.

 

Yeah probably. What can I say I got excited

[XF EDDIE 127]

We've got good news all round, the sludge problem isn't as bad as I thought with a couple of flushes with engine oil while running the pump by hand got everything visibly cleanish (no visible sludge or obstructions but everything is still kinda black). The cam bearings look pretty shitty but no deep scratches in them so I drowned the cam and lifters in assembly lube and put them in and everything is rotating smoothly. I'm still waiting on a timing chain and balancer but after that I'm putting everything back together.