5lt EFI SURGING

[Crebe 16]

I have an EB 5LT (XR8 according to the ecu) in my 66 xr ute. Have spent a zillion dollars on a custom tank with holley retro module and 95% new lines and fittings. The only thing not replaced was the regulator and fuel rails?also injectors. Since getting it back on the road I Have found its surging even under a little bit of load. This is at worse when cold and almost gone when warmed.. Has anyone got some sugestions that may point to the problem or is it a merry go round of testing and replacing. Any help or advice is appreciated.

[deankxf 20,292]

11 minutes ago, Crebe said:

I have an EB 5LT (XR8 according to the ecu) in my 66 xr ute. Have spent a zillion dollars on a custom tank with holley retro module and 95% new lines and fittings. The only thing not replaced was the regulator and fuel rails?also injectors. Since getting it back on the road I Have found its surging even under a little bit of load. This is at worse when cold and almost gone when warmed.. Has anyone got some sugestions that may point to the problem or is it a merry go round of testing and replacing. Any help or advice is appreciated.

 

if it has an airflow meter (assume so? mates EL V8 does) i'd start there, try cleaning it with some spray or borrow/swap another in. 

 

i had this with the pulsar i had a few years back, (same type but smaller size)

otherwise, @SPArKy_Dave and @Thom are the resident EFi 5litre gurus may reply later with more to check

[Thom 6,651]

E series 5.0 can be easy to diagnose some sensor problems, if you have a faulty maf sensor, o2 sensor, air intake temp sensor etc simply unplugging them one at a time and taking the car for a drive and looking for any improvement will head you in the right direction, eg if you have a bad maf unplugging it will make it run better because the ecu has a base table for all the sensors it can refer to to keep the car running, it won't be able to compensate completely but it will run better than when the bad sensor was plugged in, in your case I'd start by checking the maf, then the throttle position sensors, air intake temp sensor, then o2, if none of those being unplugged then you have to chase things like fuel pressure, faulty injectors, distributor/ plugs/ leads etc to find the problem

 

 

[SPArKy_Dave 8,881]

17 hours ago, Crebe said:

Has anyone got some sugestions that may point to the problem

 

17 hours ago, deankxf said:

 

if it has an airflow meter (assume so? mates EL V8 does) i'd start there,

 

To eliminate the MAF, just un-plug it, and see what happens.

it should start/run regardless.

The computer has a base program it uses, in case of failure.

 

If the IAC valve is sticking or gummed up, this can cause surging, by the computer constantly over/under adjusting it,

whilst attempting to set an expected idle speed.

[Crebe 16]

I have now had it brake down at the doctors. Will wind over like a bastarxld but wont start. Sure wish it was a carb car. As it was parked for nearly 8 months while i got a custom tank and fuel lines I think maybe the reg may have a gut full of rust from those nasty ford steel rails. Do they do a kit that wont take too much modifying to replace the genuine rails and reg? I Would at minimum clean the rails and replace the reg. Any sugestions for brands of regs or rails?

[Mr Polson 10,214]

Recently went through a drama with a mate where his ED 5L wouldn't start unless you used Engine Start. Once started it was mostly fine.

Turned out to be poorly adjusted throttle position sensors making it think the throttle was wide open when cranking (which kills injector pulse)

[Crebe 16]

Mr Polson, you say TPI has an adjustment. I replaced mine a couple of years ago and would be interested in the adjustment. Mine is an EB 5LT XR8 motor.

[Crebe 16]

Oooops, had sensor overload. It was a indle speed sensor ai replaced. Still after that adjustment info for the throtle position sesnsor.

[Crebe 16]

Does any one know what the stock injectors are in the eb 5lt. Mine has an xr8 ecu which may indicate an xr8 motor also? I am concidering replacing the injectors as I have increased fuel use, sometimes poor starting and also surging. A set of new Bosch 42 lb 440cc ones are on EvilBay for $500. They also list the same part for the 4lt 6 falcon and otber holdens. Would these be the stock type of injectors or a small upgrade. I would concider a small upgrade but the bullshite electrickery computer and freinds may unleash a sunami of tech woes trying to adjust for the change. The motor is stock and may not benifit from bigger injectors if that what they are. PLEASE HELP

[SPArKy_Dave 8,881]

8 hours ago, Crebe said:

Does any one know what the stock injectors are in the eb 5lt.

 

Pretty sure the stock 5.0L injectors are 18lb/hr, and the GT ones were 24lb/hr I believe?

I doubt injectors would cause poor starting and surging.

I'd go after the Oxygen sensors, and also check for a stuck EGR valve.

 

A bad MAF, can be eliminated by unplugging it.

 

Also check the TPS voltage, plus coolant Temp sensor and Intake air temp sensor resistances.

Excessive fuel usage is often caused by worn out O2 sensors.

 

My 5.0L wagon, used 17L/100km and had similar issues.

I suspect bad oxygen sensors, as I checked/replaced most other sensors first, including a new MAF.

 

Any replaced sensors, I replaced with brand new genuine, or OEM where genuine wasn't available.

I even had to import some from the USA, as they weren't available here at the time.

I also tried a known good ECU, which didn't change anything.

 

The only items I didn't check or replace, were the O2's and EGR (which I think may be stuck partly open).

 

 

 

 

[Mr Polson 10,214]

TPS adjustment

 

What is needed?

- Phillips head screwdriver

- small straight pin(s)

- Digital multimeter

 

 

 

How to do it

The TPS basically bolts to the throttle body with two screws. The holes that the screws go through on the TPS are elongated so you can twist the TPS in either direction to adjust it. To adjust the TPS all you have to do is loosen (don't take them out) both screws and move the TPS until you see the right voltage.

 

To hook the multimeter up you will have to pierce the green wire with a pin so you can check how much voltage is going through it. The red or positive (+) wire on your multimeter will go to the pin in the green wire. Then you'll have to either pierce the black wire and put the negative wire from the multimeter to it, or just put the black multimeter wire to a good engine ground.

Now to check the voltage turn on your multimeter and make sure all of the wires are hooked up right. Then turn the ignition key to the on position, but don't start the car. You should be getting a reading on your multimeter. It should be .98-.99 volts, but anything above .90 and below 1.0 volts should work.

If its not, then its time to loosen the screws on the TPS and move it around until you get it right. When its at the right voltage tighten the screws and re-check it.

If for some reason you cannot get the voltage reading right you have two options. Either buy a new TPS or take off the old one and elongate the holes a little more with a file or a dremel.

 

Fuel injectors - we mistakenly put the 24lbs ones in this engine when we rebuilt it

Resulted in hard to start and extremely rich running, to the point of becoming undrivable.

Put the original ones back in and all was good.

 

 

[Crebe 16]

Thank you?all for those bits of advice. I willstart at the ot sensor and try to find how to check it. Also can i use a certain cleaner to clean it first to see if it makes a difference?

[Crebe 16]

Ooops that O2 sensor.

[SPArKy_Dave 8,881]

3 hours ago, Crebe said:

Ooops that O2 sensor.

 

once they're worn out, replacement is the only fix tbh

They're about $60 each

I'd recommend only using NTK brand - which is usually what ford used.

Cheap ones can cause issues

 

[Crebe 16]

Ok NTK brand of injectors? Is that what you are talking about SPArKy_Dave ? Also i thought there was a sticker saying dont clean near the maf. What do ford recomend to clean it with. And also what is a AIC ?  and where is it and the EGR ?

[SPArKy_Dave 8,881]

10 hours ago, Crebe said:

Ok NTK brand of injectors? Is that what you are talking about SPArKy_Dave ? Also i thought there was a sticker saying dont clean near the maf. What do ford recomend to clean it with. And also what is a AIC ?  and where is it and the EGR ?

 

IAC = Idle Air Control Valve - lives on the throttlebody - usually what causes the idle to surge

Yeah NTK brand is generally the most reliable.

U can clean the maf, with a proper maf cleaner spray - take it off, the housing, and check the tiny sensor bulb for a build up of dust/dirt

The EGR is also near the throttlebody - it has a vacuum valve and sensor attached to it

[Crebe 16]

Ok have done the following. Removed the MAF and cleaned it with MAF cleaner, removed the 02 sensor and cleaned it and soaked in carb/throtle body cleaner for 6 hours reinstalled with a tiny bit of antiseize on the thread. TPS, Checked the resistance on brown wire? and the base voltage 1.19? and max voltage 4.39  by measuring while slowly opening the throttle while the key was on ...green wire. 

AIC was removed and cleaned in carb cleaner but looked very good anyway. Vale operated smothly. This unit, Fuelmiser, was put in about 2-3K ago. It replaced a genuine unit. I took it for a run before i did the AIC and it seemed fixed as it had no more surging. The only thing i need to check now is if the idle has stedied. The cold start I did seemed to hold the revs up around 900 for five seconds then  slowly returns to 650, a small quick touch of the throttle makes it hang the same way again at 900 the slow back to 650. Dont know if thats acseptable or not but wish it would drop straight to 600 or 650. Thanks for the info and i checked a lot on th net which also help confirm things.

Thanks again for the help!

[SPArKy_Dave 8,881]

Sticky IAC valve will cause rev-hang.

I'd try the original Ford IAC if u still have it... I never quite trust aftermarket stuff like that.

 

It'd be worth fitting new O2 sensor's also. (x2 on the V8's)

Once they're worn out, the only sure fix is new ones.

[Crebe 16]

Thats interesting what you say about the O2 sensors. I had a conversation on this forum or another and was told we only have one on the v8. Mine is an EB motor possiby out of an XR8 but thats only going on the cpu numbers refered to a chart i found somewhere. Anyway mine has one. Its an NTK unit. Are EB only to have one CO2? Mines on the equalizer pipe. The rev hanging has allways been there in different degrees. Thats why a changed out the old Ford unit to try and fix it along with the TPS adjustment. It made it better but there still was a bit of hanging there, maybe normal. I have low faith in after market but ford wont even bother looking for EB parts. Also people who find a NOS "rare part" "cant find these anymore" want bullshite money for them. When i cleaned the after market AIC I also cleaned the old ford one but not confident its workin. Will look for a way to check/test it. For now I will move back onto the brake fluid squirting back up into the reserve, about 150mm into the air, that it keeps finding a way out of the master cylinder and is going everywhere on the underside of the unit and down onto the chasis rail lifting the paint off. Have found info from Aus, USA and UK with a dozen different ideas as to what it is. Anwhere from being normal to air in the lines to faulty unit to ??? I have allways had rear brake lock and added an adjustable preasure regulator but even wound mostly toward little rear bakes it will lock if being to quick onto the brakes. I jacked it and ran in gear and can see the axles must be bent slightly and figure this will cause the lock ups. Still gotta replace the after market master, its a got a large casted PR on the passenger side bottom sold at Grand atourer and thGT Shop to suit XB. have a chance to buy an origonal reconditiond PBR for $200 including 20 freight. Could try that and hope dont fail withis problem again.

[SPArKy_Dave 8,881]

As far as I'm aware, all the e-series V8's had two O2 sensors. (one in each pipe)

The wiring loom may have been changed?

 

Sounds like it could be a dodgy master cylinder?

I'd go for the proper PBR one.

[Crebe 16]

Sparky Dave, the PBR master cylinders are unobtainium if new. PBR got bought out by Bosch who quicly stopped preducing any labelled PBR products. One on the net now NOS $880 or a referb to good quality fron $665 BUT! I think you have to supply a unit to them that is good enough to refurb! I was going to make sure about the O2 sensor quantity on the EB as I have been told 1 and also 2. I am after a second hand EB WORKSHOP MANUAL to help with my head scratching. I had a thought today that if the rear brake master piston seals fail does it force fluid up into the reserve? There are two holes in each reserve,front and rear brakes. The hole its pissing up through in the rear brake reserve is a tiny little hole at the front drivers side of the reserve. In fact looking at photos my reserve hole looks smaller than any others in the photos. Could these extra small holes in each reserve be where the fluid can go when a seal fails? In fact the hole looks to be to the side and directly over the little piston/plunger thingy for the brake fail switch. Hmmm. Any ideas you guys that know lots of stuff about brakes?

[SPArKy_Dave 8,881]

Yeah, mostly have to rebuild ur original PBR parts these days.

Don't throw anything away, etc.

 

Could it be an over-pressure bypass, if one circuit or the other gets seized up -

ie, if a caliper or wheel cylinder get seized?

So u don't lose all braking.

 

[Crebe 16]

Sparky Dave the thingy i described is for when either the front or rear brake lines loses preasure. It sits in a neutral position when both front and back brakes have preasure but if say the rears lose preasure the front brake preasure will force the litlle piston to move and so doing makes the brake fail switch turn on. The reverse happens if the front brakes lose preasure. It has preasure either end of it which keeps it from moving, then when it loses preasure at on end it is pushed to the on position. Simple. Just wondering if one of the 2 holes in the rear resrve are connect to that little piston. As i said one hole is rite above the brake fail piston and thats the one shooting fluid way into the air. Got an origonal newold stock cap seal on it but it still comes out around the ca I adges, even though the lid clip is as tight as.

[SPArKy_Dave 8,881]

17 hours ago, Crebe said:

the thingy i described is for when either the front or rear brake lines loses preasure.

 

I'd check to see if ur rear wheel cylinders are moving ok.

And the front ones too.

 

Is it drum or disc front?

[Crebe 16]

Rear cylinders are working perfect and not very old. Well i have made the decision on how to fix the paint.the diff leaks, the diff width, the engine and tailshaft angle, the bent axles, the squirting and leaking master cylinder, the corroded master fittings, the tailshaft vibration, the wipers not returning to home, the brakes pulling to the left, the shit paint job done, the wheels hitting the gards,the fuel pump priming the motor on accesories switch, the engine holding revs at idle, and the rattling exhast on the bumpers. I announced to the family in a text, that after owning this for six years and spending around 8k on fixing shit that was done wrong on the cheap but looked great, i am selling the worst car and worst ford, i have ever owned. I figure with NSW being the desert when it comes to automotive experts and shithouse at advice and help, also, parts and availability,  that I sell the peace of shit and forget about fixing other peoples shocking workmanship. So, I will have 1 x 1966 custom XR ute leather upolstery, Ford Viper paint, 18 x 8.5 wheels ali hard lid, xr8 5lt and 4 sp auto, air, custom frenched gauges, momo wheel bla blah blah. Price to be advised...watch this soace... or not!

Also thanks for the help and info.