86 XF Falcon Ute not starting

[deankxf 21,128]

4 hours ago, XF EDDIE said:

till runs like crap but the knocking is gone. Still popping tho so I'll check the valve

 

i reckon the pushrod falling out would have been from a sticking valve or lazy lifter (sitting ages issue)

 

that "lethargic" Intake Cylinder 1 valve, if it is moving less (appears so) if you were comfortable undoing the rocker, pulling the push rod and then finding a way to pull that lifter out (i find a sharpened bit of coat hanger wire can hook them out, might need to lift them up and down several/20+ times to get the carbon off them) you can see if the lifter is wiped out (if so, the cam will be wiped out) 

 

if it's not causing issues (other than running a bit crap) i'd just drive it and see how much you like the car etc. 
i had a crossflow with a wiped cam, chewing lifters once, it would wear down one lifter and get all clacky and i'd pull the worn out lifter and fit another second hand one in, get another 10,000km out of it and repeat. (find another engine in the meantime) 

 

if you end up fixing everything that's worn, you'll be clocking up a decent chunk of money (price a cam, lifters, timing chain for eg i doubt you'd be under $500) and then you still have a worn out rings/bearings engine and a full reco would be up around $4000 by the time you did hoses, belts and coolant/oil/ plugs/cap/leads and all the rest. 

 fair chance someone with a crossflow fitting a V8 will give a good running one up for $250 odd if you keep your eyes peeled 

[XF EDDIE 207]

8 minutes ago, deankxf said:

 

i reckon the pushrod falling out would have been from a sticking valve or lazy lifter (sitting ages issue)

 

that "lethargic" Intake Cylinder 1 valve, if it is moving less (appears so) if you were comfortable undoing the rocker, pulling the push rod and then finding a way to pull that lifter out (i find a sharpened bit of coat hanger wire can hook them out, might need to lift them up and down several/20+ times to get the carbon off them) you can see if the lifter is wiped out (if so, the cam will be wiped out) 

 

if it's not causing issues (other than running a bit crap) i'd just drive it and see how much you like the car etc. 
i had a crossflow with a wiped cam, chewing lifters once, it would wear down one lifter and get all clacky and i'd pull the worn out lifter and fit another second hand one in, get another 10,000km out of it and repeat. (find another engine in the meantime) 

 

if you end up fixing everything that's worn, you'll be clocking up a decent chunk of money (price a cam, lifters, timing chain for eg i doubt you'd be under $500) and then you still have a worn out rings/bearings engine and a full reco would be up around $4000 by the time you did hoses, belts and coolant/oil/ plugs/cap/leads and all the rest. 

 fair chance someone with a crossflow fitting a V8 will give a good running one up for $250 odd if you keep your eyes peeled 

There's one near me for $150 but at the same time there's also a 351c for sale near me for $800 so you can see my dilemma. The only reason I wanted to keep the Crossy is because I thought this car was a survivor. However with the rust and dodgy repairs on it the rose tint is starting to wear off. Honestly it all depends how much is required to put a clevo in it. If it's not gonna take forever then I'll probably do that (I got the legal side covered allready so it's just mechanical). However if it isn't gonna take too much to fix the Crossy then I'll keep it as I do like to keep things original. What are your thoughts?

[XF EDDIE 207]

15 minutes ago, deankxf said:

 

i reckon the pushrod falling out would have been from a sticking valve or lazy lifter (sitting ages issue)

 

that "lethargic" Intake Cylinder 1 valve, if it is moving less (appears so) if you were comfortable undoing the rocker, pulling the push rod and then finding a way to pull that lifter out (i find a sharpened bit of coat hanger wire can hook them out, might need to lift them up and down several/20+ times to get the carbon off them) you can see if the lifter is wiped out (if so, the cam will be wiped out) 

 

if it's not causing issues (other than running a bit crap) i'd just drive it and see how much you like the car etc. 
i had a crossflow with a wiped cam, chewing lifters once, it would wear down one lifter and get all clacky and i'd pull the worn out lifter and fit another second hand one in, get another 10,000km out of it and repeat. (find another engine in the meantime) 

 

if you end up fixing everything that's worn, you'll be clocking up a decent chunk of money (price a cam, lifters, timing chain for eg i doubt you'd be under $500) and then you still have a worn out rings/bearings engine and a full reco would be up around $4000 by the time you did hoses, belts and coolant/oil/ plugs/cap/leads and all the rest. 

 fair chance someone with a crossflow fitting a V8 will give a good running one up for $250 odd if you keep your eyes peeled 

Also how hard is it to pull the cam outta one of these. If that's my issue I could get a used cam pretty easy.

[deankxf 21,128]

56 minutes ago, XF EDDIE said:

Also how hard is it to pull the cam outta one of these. If that's my issue I could get a used cam pretty easy.

 

what i'd do is grab the $150 one below and slap it in pesonally, gets it going easy. fix the original later maybe.

58 minutes ago, XF EDDIE said:

There's one near me for $150 but at the same time there's also a 351c for sale near me for $800 so you can see my dilemma.

351 into XF, bit of mucking around but i've done it in a weekend when i had all the bits ready. 
the heater pipes foul on the engine/heads so there's a couple of ways to get around that. 

 

the gearbox crossmember on XF only has one position unlike XD/XE,  you might need to mod the cross member to suit depending on gearbox choice (a 351 and FMX auto from 1977LTD dropped straight into My brothers with the heater pipes bent up (they cracked the solder, so this needs doing with heater core removed) and some hammering of the firewall. 

 

used XE V8 accel cable on the thermoquad carby, but if you have a holley you can use the 6cyl cable from the back side instead of pulling from the front. 

 

 

[XF EDDIE 207]

34 minutes ago, deankxf said:

 

what i'd do is grab the $150 one below and slap it in pesonally, gets it going easy. fix the original later maybe.

351 into XF, bit of mucking around but i've done it in a weekend when i had all the bits ready. 
the heater pipes foul on the engine/heads so there's a couple of ways to get around that. 

 

the gearbox crossmember on XF only has one position unlike XD/XE,  you might need to mod the cross member to suit depending on gearbox choice (a 351 and FMX auto from 1977LTD dropped straight into My brothers with the heater pipes bent up (they cracked the solder, so this needs doing with heater core removed) and some hammering of the firewall. 

 

used XE V8 accel cable on the thermoquad carby, but if you have a holley you can use the 6cyl cable from the back side instead of pulling from the front. 

 

 

I heard somewhere that the XF 1 (what I got) still had the xe crossmember although I'm not sure how I would hook up the column shifter. Is there anything wrong with using the stock box or won't it fit? Also with the lifter do I just look for deep marks or is there something else to look out for? I really like the XF but it's just so gutless I don't know if it's just because of mine running crapily or if it's just an XF thing but when I put my foot down it takes almost 30 seconds to hit 100 which just seems too slow. What was yours like? 

[deankxf 21,128]

2 minutes ago, XF EDDIE said:

I heard somewhere that the XF 1 (what I got) still had the xe crossmember although I'm not sure how I would hook up the column shifter. Is there anything wrong with using the stock box or won't it fit? Also with the lifter do I just look for deep marks or is there something else to look out for? I really like the XF but it's just so gutless I don't know if it's just because of mine running crapily or if it's just an XF thing but when I put my foot down it takes almost 30 seconds to hit 100 which just seems too slow. What was yours like? 

 

i had seen some XFs with the 2 different crossmember spots, likely the leaded ones but not idea to be honest. 

 

the lifters when NEW have a dome shape on the bit that runs on the cam ( i have never seen this on any used ones) when they are normal they'll be fairly flat(they wear in on cam run in). when they are stuffed they are dished inwards, and when the cam is wiped they might not even have an even base but they'll not be looking good. (pull the one out next to it that is working better, and compare.. ) 

 

google has some pics on this link

 

 

4 minutes ago, XF EDDIE said:

What was yours like? 

this was My stock standard XF ute column auto one, ZL fairlane cluster fitted. 

probably on LPG. 

 

 

[XF EDDIE 207]

2 minutes ago, deankxf said:

 

i had seen some XFs with the 2 different crossmember spots, likely the leaded ones but not idea to be honest. 

 

the lifters when NEW have a dome shape on the bit that runs on the cam ( i have never seen this on any used ones) when they are normal they'll be fairly flat(they wear in on cam run in). when they are stuffed they are dished inwards, and when the cam is wiped they might not even have an even base but they'll not be looking good. (pull the one out next to it that is working better, and compare.. ) 

 

google has some pics on this link

 

 

this was My stock standard XF ute column auto one, ZL fairlane cluster fitted. 

probably on LPG. 

 

 

Yeah mines much slower than that. I forgot to mention that the bolt was backed out and someone else had been in there as evidenced by all the bolts being finger tight and the rear one being gone so I'm wondering if someone's been at it before

[deankxf 21,128]

20 minutes ago, XF EDDIE said:

I'm not sure how I would hook up the column shifter. 

 

I can't remember what gearbox you have? 

if it's auto, then there's column shift V8 stuff that would fit up to it the same. 

 

if it's manual, well you'll be unlikely to get it working (not sure i've seen a falcon with 3 speed V8 manual)

 

[SPArKy_Dave 9,344]

11 hours ago, XF EDDIE said:

@SPArKy_Dave What's the torque spec for the rocker arm bolt?

 

Around 20-25nm I believe

[SPArKy_Dave 9,344]

8 hours ago, XF EDDIE said:

I noticed that the cylinder 1 intake valve looked lethargic so I recorded it. What do you guys think?

 

From ur video angle, it looks like no.1, no.4 and no.5 intake valves aren't opening correctly.

Either partly bent pushrod/s (remove to check) collapsed/stuck lifter, or worn camshaft.

 

I'd also see what the vacuum gauge reads, now that loose pushrod is fixed.

 

If u have a lifter removal tool, with some maneuvering, u can remove the lifters without undoing the cylinder head.

Same for the camshaft.

The radiator/AC condenser needs removing to get the camshaft out though.

 

With my XF wagon, I removed each lifter and disassembled/cleaned/refitted them.

I had x3 bent pushrods, all on the intake side.

 

 

 

 

 

[SPArKy_Dave 9,344]

4 hours ago, XF EDDIE said:

when I put my foot down it takes almost 30 seconds to hit 100 which just seems too slow. What was yours like? 

 

I can imagine...

When my XF was running poorly, I drove it up the street to test, and it barely got out of it's own way.

 

I'd suggest to get it running nicely first, then decide.

It's a big expensive undertaking to swap in other drivelines and have it daily-driver reliable.

(especially these days, with rising costs, etc)

 

It should be brisk and torquey, but not certainly 'fast' like a modern vehicle.

World's cheaper/easier to diagnose/maintain and repair though, and I'd choose that any day.

 

[XF EDDIE 207]

Well I went at it some more today and checked the valves. I hit it with a dead blow and it was perfectly free, however the lifters are a different story. I worked them up and down but couldn't get them out my guess is mushroomed faces on them. After throwing the valvetrain back together it ran the same and the vac gauge still showed a missing cylinder. I noticed some glitter in the oil sitting in the rockers while it was running so that doesn't seem good. I reved it and managed to get the cylinder to even out at about 3000 (you can see it in the vac gauge) but it was hit and miss. I noticed that it was easier to hook into the lifter on the intake valve with there seeming to be more space for the tool I made to go in so it might just be a sticky lifter. Any advice on how to get the lifters out?

[deankxf 21,128]

1 minute ago, XF EDDIE said:

Any advice on how to get the lifters out?

 

they won't be mushroomed, it will be carbon build up on them. 
just work them up and down as much force upwards as you can each time, they'll come out. 

if you can rotate the engine a little to put that lifter at the lowest position first, it will get sort of a run up in a yank to pull it out, i don't think you'll get much spray down the side of it, it will just need working up and down. 

 

 

[XF EDDIE 207]

21 minutes ago, deankxf said:

 

they won't be mushroomed, it will be carbon build up on them. 
just work them up and down as much force upwards as you can each time, they'll come out. 

if you can rotate the engine a little to put that lifter at the lowest position first, it will get sort of a run up in a yank to pull it out, i don't think you'll get much spray down the side of it, it will just need working up and down. 

 

 

Ok I'll give it a go. Also how do you get it out past the head

[XF EDDIE 207]

If I got a micrometer how would I check the lift on the cam? 

[deankxf 21,128]

1 hour ago, XF EDDIE said:

Ok I'll give it a go. Also how do you get it out past the head

most come straight up, some need poking along a bit to the bigger opening.
you are only going to need to check a couple, if one's stuffed, its' game over for that cam, then in my opinion i'd fit another engine (crossflow) to just be done with it sooner. 

 

doing an engine conversion i like to have everything  ready to go, i don't like pulling a running car apart for long, otherwise it snowballs into an unfinished project easy. 

 

fitting a cam with the engine in the car sounds like a nightmare to me, but it can be done. 

 

i'd sooner pull the engine out. (engine out in an XF with the trans still on it is easy, can be done in a few hours if you are set up for it. i used to start undoing stuff friday night, wake up pull the engine out before lunch, and bolt the replacement engine up to the gearbox etc and complete it as much as possible *changing welsh plug behind flywheel and having new hoses, belts, oils etc ready to go. then after lunch drop the engine in the bay and do up all the under side of the car first .. exhaust, tailshaft, gearbox, engine mounts etc.. then sunday i'd just do all the easy stuff and test drive it before it went back to work on Monday good for another 50,000km of zero maintenance other than oil changes. 

 

1 hour ago, XF EDDIE said:

If I got a micrometer how would I check the lift on the cam? 

 

basically a piece of coathanger would be good enough. sit a pushrod in and get a measurement of how high it comes up and down..  do it same for others, if a cam or lifter is wiped it's going to be 1mm difference pretty confidently. could likely hold a ruler up to the side and see how much the pushrod travels even for 1mm ish  change

[SPArKy_Dave 9,344]

7 hours ago, XF EDDIE said:

however the lifters are a different story. I worked them up and down but couldn't get them out my guess is mushroomed faces on them.

 

I used a T-handle lifter removal tool for my lifters.

 

Initially to get them out, I applied a hammer type force downwards using my palm on the tool handle,

whilst at the same time, applying upwards tension on the handle with my other hand.

 

I later learned that the trick is to rotate the lifters, as you try to lift them in or out.

(they're an incredibly precise fit)

[SPArKy_Dave 9,344]

On 6/3/2024 at 8:53 PM, deankxf said:

i'd sooner pull the engine out.

 

In my mind, the trouble (and risk) is all crossflows are likely worn out these days.

They're 20yrs older, with 250-300,000km +.

 

IMO, any replacement sec/hand engine, could have a worn cam also?

Use of modern Synthetic/Non-Zinc engine oils in flat-tappet engines (aka crossflows) won't have helped.

 

Yes, could definitely use a Micrometer to measure cam lift, and compare with the factory specs.

Moot point though, as if the pushrods are straight, then either cam and/or lifters are toast.

 

Crossflow 6cyl's (and flat-tappet Clevo's/Windsor's too), need 15w/40 or 20w/50 mineral oil IMO.

Easiest way I found, is to use diesel grade mineral oils, and double check the zinc content from manufacturer specs.

[XF EDDIE 207]

Well Ive tried pulling the lifters out with a magnet and a flattened welding rod and nothing has worked they move freely until the end where they feel like they hit a wall. Ive ordered a lifter pull tool but that wont be here till Friday. If you have any other tips on how to get them out then let me know

[SPArKy_Dave 9,344]

1 hour ago, XF EDDIE said:

Well Ive tried pulling the lifters out with a magnet and a flattened welding rod and nothing has worked they move freely until the end where they feel like they hit a wall. Ive ordered a lifter pull tool but that wont be here till Friday. If you have any other tips on how to get them out then let me know

 

It was challenging to get my lifters out, even with the tool, and rotating them as I applied upwards pressure.

 

I also needed to use extended reach long-nose pliers with a circle shape on the end, to help tighten/loosen the tool into the lifters.

(lightly firm, not too tight or u can fracture/break the cast metal lifter body)

 

Plus a stick magnet to fish each lifter out of the chasm, once pulled out of their lifter bores.

 

 

[XF EDDIE 207]

3 minutes ago, SPArKy_Dave said:

 

It was challenging to get my lifters out, even with the tool.

I also needed to use extended reach long-nose pliers with a circle shape on the end, to help tighten/loosen the tool into the lifters.

(lightly firm, not too tight or u can break the lifter body)

 

Plus a stick magnet to fish them out of the chasm, once pulled out of their lifter bores.

 

 

Where can I buy a pair?

[SPArKy_Dave 9,344]

Just now, XF EDDIE said:

Where can I buy a pair?

 

Ebay, Amazon, local toolshop, Bunnings possibly also?

Mine are just cheap ones from some discount hardware shop yrs ago.

[SPArKy_Dave 9,344]

Just now, XF EDDIE said:

Where can I buy a pair?

 

In the interim, u could try making a 3 pronged removal tool, by flattening 3 pieces of welding rod, then twisting the three together into a cone shape.

Thus creating a spring-loaded action, to lock the 3 prongs under the lifter edge?

 

Dunno if it'd work, just a random brainstorm idea I had.

 

[XF EDDIE 207]

I haven't pulled the lifters out but I had an idea on what could be wrong. This problem only started when I flushed and changed the oil. The motor was really sludgy before this and I was getting some funky readings out of cylinder 1. When cold it would be at 120 but when hot it would be at 150. So what I am wondering is could have the sludge have blocked up the lifters or the oil galleys and thus caused them to not properly pump up with oil thus having slack cylinders. This would explain why when I drive it hard it evens out because the oil pressure is up enough to pump up the lifters. What do you think, am I talking outta my ass?

[deankxf 21,128]

1 hour ago, XF EDDIE said:

I haven't pulled the lifters out but I had an idea on what could be wrong. This problem only started when I flushed and changed the oil. The motor was really sludgy before this and I was getting some funky readings out of cylinder 1. When cold it would be at 120 but when hot it would be at 150. So what I am wondering is could have the sludge have blocked up the lifters or the oil galleys and thus caused them to not properly pump up with oil thus having slack cylinders. This would explain why when I drive it hard it evens out because the oil pressure is up enough to pump up the lifters. What do you think, am I talking outta my ass?

yes, i agree with this 

 

as to what to do about it,  not sure., i've had them come good before so i'd be tempted to run it for a while and see how it goes. i always had spare engines back then so i wouldn't have cared much.