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fotz

XF AU Windsor conversion

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Sorry bellhousing is from a v8. E4TA-7505-Da. No idea what car this is from. 
 

Apparently the 6cyl t5 from ea bolts onto this bell housing and will bolt onto a Clevo.

 

But not sure if this will bolt onto the AU EFI Windsor motor?

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Sorry bellhousing is from a v8. E4TA-7505-Da. No idea what car this is from. 
 
Apparently the 6cyl t5 from ea bolts onto this bell housing and will bolt onto a Clevo.
 
But not sure if this will bolt onto the AU EFI Windsor motor?
Should do, like I say, Ford small block bell pattern should be a no-brainer.

Sounds like the bell is from an 80s F-truck. Although my search says it's for a 4-speed (maybe SROD?) If they happen to have the same gearbox pattern as a T5, you might be ok but not sure about input shaft length.

E4 = 1984
TA = Truck
7505 = part number for bellhousing
DA = revision

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Hey, I didnt end up pursuing that bell housing. I am going back to my original plan, which is to locate an EBII to EL series t5.

 

As I mentioned above I can get a bellhousing for this, from the rodshop https://www.rodshop.com.au/bellhousing-gearbox-ford-t5-6-cyl-engine-ford-wind

 

Keen to understand how anyone has done this in an XF - or even XD\XE.

 

Not sure if I am getting confused, but the V8 T5 had a longer input shaft than the 6cyl in the E series. Which would mean the whole gearbox would move forward, which would impact the moutning points of the gearbox and also the length of the tailshaft?

 

I was speaking to someone yesterday and they were saying to possibly go for a V8 bellhousing and apparently there are a few places that can change the input shaft to the longer length. Its not a direct swap from a v8 input shaft as the gear sizes are different in the box itself, but they have something available to swap over that fits.

 

I would assume both setups would work, its just that they will require a different tailshaft and cross member for it to work?

 

Lastly, with the shorter input shaft, there must be some further consequences with this - in relation to the flywheel\clutch and pressure plate. The bellhousing would be much smaller as well. I understand the standard setup would fit, but if an upgraded clutch was needed in future, I woudl assume there would be some issues?

 

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i'll explain in My words what's happening with (6cy) T5 bell housing for V8 from CRS, 

 

the 6cyl and V8 single rail 4 speed is same everything in the front as a 6cyl T5(other than diameter of the hole needed for the carrier that holds the thrust race. )

 

so when using the CRS bell housing, you can use everything from an XA to XE single rail V8 set up on a cleveland.. (not sure about the balance of a windsor, they always confuse me when it's mentioned... as in, if the flywheels are balanced same)

 

a T5 6cyl XF and single rail 6cyl XF use same shifter location, and  tailshaft but the T5's gearbox crossmember is different, it's bent in a banana shape(i made one for My XE because i couldn't find one.. EA ones are same also) 

 

here is the 6cyl T5 mount i made for XE/XF about 20yrs ago

zYSAc8P.jpg

 

and here is how many 6cyl T5 to single rail bell housings were done 20yrs ago

note the lower bolt holes aren't used(no bell housing support there) but drilled and bolted in a different spot. 
in this case, the carrier that holds the thrust race was removed and machined down in diameter to match the single rail bell housing, but people have also bored out the single rail bell housing to fit the t5 directly.. and @gerg welded on metal for the lower T5 bolts to be used on his. 

vLiEip1.jpg

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Thanks @deankdx 

 

I had a very quick skim through those previous posts and I believe these related to modifying existing housings and also relate to Clevo not windsort. 

 

Just noting, I currently have an XF T5 gearbox at the moment, so I have the bellhousing for 4.1, tailshaft and cross member. See photo below of crossmember. It should match exactly what you have said above. It would match the CRS one a well right?

 

I guess my question is with the Ford AU Windsor motor, if I go with the CRS bell housing are you saying I could then run the tailshaft from an XA-XE V8 ? Existing cross member from XF will fit, and I wont have issues with the shifter either?

 

OR is it better to go with the V8 bellhousing from a XH or e-series (will step gearbox further back 26mm) and add a longer input shaft to the t5 - or does this not work either?

 

I guess the big question is what is the impact of the 26mm difference in the input shaft and what role does this play on the XF?

 

Is the back of the windsor motor in the same place as the back of 4.1 crossflow? If so, then the CRS bell housing is the way to go. If not then I am seeing issues with the shifter maybe (26mm off or viceversa)

 

I dont believe the clevo and windsor is mounted in the same spot. As we know that if you try to mount a clevo in the XF, the heater pipes get in the way. But I could be wrong. I am probably overthinking this.. so please let me know if I am crazy here.

 

image.png.2b7dd4dae05d4fb02d51602dbde7dc08.png

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47 minutes ago, fotz said:

I dont believe the clevo and windsor is mounted in the same spot. As we know that if you try to mount a clevo in the XF, the heater pipes get in the way. But I could be wrong. I am probably overthinking this.. so please let me know if I am crazy here.

 

@Thom can you read the post above and see what pops out...or tag anyone who might know the difference between clevo an windsor flywheel, and where the engine sits in the bay related to the heater pipes(dictated by the engine mounts) is the left bank staggered forward on the windsor and vice versa on the clevo? what makes them not fit usually? i don't know. 

 

@fotz i'll reply in each of the above separately. 

51 minutes ago, fotz said:

I had a very quick skim through those previous posts and I believe these related to modifying existing housings and also relate to Clevo not windsort. 

yes, the windsor is rarely chosen into X series. i just remembered @ashXFute has the windsor in XF but auto though, might be able to share some more answers related to firewall position/heater hose clearance..

thread here 

 

 

55 minutes ago, fotz said:

Just noting, I currently have an XF T5 gearbox at the moment, so I have the bellhousing for 4.1, tailshaft and cross member. See photo below of crossmember. It should match exactly what you have said above. It would match the CRS one a well right?

yes the XF T5 mount should mount the 6cyT5 in the right spot on a clevo/CRS bell housing into XE XF .. i don't know about the EB to XH bell housing/V8 box though. 
have you tried contacting CRS? they may have these answers. they may not also. 

 

57 minutes ago, fotz said:

I guess my question is with the Ford AU Windsor motor, if I go with the CRS bell housing are you saying I could then run the tailshaft from an XA-XE V8 ? Existing cross member from XF will fit, and I wont have issues with the shifter either?

in My opinion, (not sure) the windsor should put the gear stick in the same spot as a clevo. (if so, then XF 6cyl tail shaft will work etc on a CRS bell housing) CRS may know the answer, try calling them. 

 

59 minutes ago, fotz said:

OR is it better to go with the V8 bellhousing from a XH or e-series (will step gearbox further back 26mm) and add a longer input shaft to the t5 - or does this not work either?

 

see above reply, 26mm further back if it ends up there is right in the brace for the bucket seat reinforcing .. so you don't want to be there unless the windsor actually does mount further forward?  something to confirm/check with CRS etc or AshXFute may be able to check?

 

1 hour ago, fotz said:

I guess the big question is what is the impact of the 26mm difference in the input shaft and what role does this play on the XF?

 

also see previous answer, if it does put the stick further back, thats into the seat brace reinforcing. i'm sure an engineer would want some reinforcing if it was cut into.. and then you'd need a shorter tail shaft if so i would think(assuming the mounting face to extension housing of a V8 T5 is otherwise identical, then also the T5 cross member may not reach this far back(there's some adjustment, not as much as the Mal Wood one above.. perhaps call Mal Wood also. (i Hear he's a busy man,  so try to get your questions simple for a short call) 

 

1 hour ago, fotz said:

Is the back of the windsor motor in the same place as the back of 4.1 crossflow? If so, then the CRS bell housing is the way to go. If not then I am seeing issues with the shifter maybe (26mm off or viceversa)

 

I dont believe the clevo and windsor is mounted in the same spot. As we know that if you try to mount a clevo in the XF, the heater pipes get in the way. But I could be wrong. I am probably overthinking this.. so please let me know if I am crazy here.

this i don't know.

if the difference Clevo to Windsor is how the left bank cylinders are staged, then the bell housing face and engine mounts could be identical? i thought this was the reason the windsor heads cleared the heater. can't confirm sorry, i'd call CRS first, if they are unhelpful i'd be surprised.  you could mention if they don't mind you can put the info into the Ozfalcon.com.au forum with a mention of their advice (for future enquiries/sales) they may spend more time thinking about it than otherwise. 

(the last time i rang CRS, Rod Hadfield was still there, that was long ago. ) 

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this i don't know.

if the difference Clevo to Windsor is how the left bank cylinders are staged, then the bell housing face and engine mounts could be identical? i thought this was the reason the windsor heads cleared the heater. can't confirm sorry, i'd call CRS first, if they are unhelpful i'd be surprised.  you could mention if they don't mind you can put the info into the Ozfalcon.com.au forum with a mention of their advice (for future enquiries/sales) they may spend more time thinking about it than otherwise. 

(the last time i rang CRS, Rod Hadfield was still there, that was long ago. ) 

 

There's alot to go through here and I'm guaranteed to miss something but the short answer is using a 6 cylinder t5 and a crs or modified 4 speed bellhousing will put the shifter through the stock hole in the floor, a factory xf t5 (or modified single rail) crossmember will work and a stock single rail (assuming stock diff) tailshaft will work, off the shelf headers will work too (factory eb-au ones are garbage and will interfere with a right hand starter

 

Windsors and Cleveland's have the same engine mounts and bellhousing pattern and their relationship to each other is the same for both engines, a Cleveland has a taller deck height and physically larger heads making a Cleveland taller and wider than a 302 Windsor bust slightly narrower than a 351 windsor ( 302 Windsor 8.2 inch deck height, Cleveland deck height 9.2 inches, 351 Windsor 9.5 inch deck height

 

The path of least resistance for what you want to do would be to use a 6 cyl t5 (preferably e series falcon) and a crs or modified stock bellhousing (you will have to get a flywheel to suit, make sure it is one that has a 50oz balance to suit the roller windsor, a stock or upgraded e series t5 clutch will work) with one of their trans mounts (or make your own) the rest of the stock driveline should work

 

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The question I had for you@Thom was what flywheel tooth count did the later E-series Windsors have? I seem to remember you saying that the BTR auto ones had the 164 tooth flexplate like a clevo (and were 50oz vs clevo 28) but were the manuals also 164 tooth or 157 (like the other small Windsors)?

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Thansk all :) 

 

@Thom @gerg Does this mean the e-series v8 box would not fit in the xf behind a windsor, as it would be shifted back too far as it has a longer input shaft?

 

Keen to know this, as I will make sure not to go down this path even though the box is better. (unless I can shorten the input shaft).

 

**** also I would assume in the e-series for the v8 engines, is the shifter mounted further back? Or does the 4.0l sit more forward than the windsor in the eseries? There has to be a reson why the input shaft was longer?

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The question I had for you[mention=43]Thom[/mention] was what flywheel tooth count did the later E-series Windsors have? I seem to remember you saying that the BTR auto ones had the 164 tooth flexplate like a clevo (and were 50oz vs clevo 28) but were the manuals also 164 tooth or 157 (like the other small Windsors)?

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I don't know, I've never come across a V8 flywheel to check

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Thansk all  
 
[mention=43]Thom[/mention] [mention=244]gerg[/mention] Does this mean the e-series v8 box would not fit in the xf behind a windsor, as it would be shifted back too far as it has a longer input shaft?
 
Keen to know this, as I will make sure not to go down this path even though the box is better. (unless I can shorten the input shaft).
 
**** also I would assume in the e-series for the v8 engines, is the shifter mounted further back? Or does the 4.0l sit more forward than the windsor in the eseries? There has to be a reson why the input shaft was longer?


The V8 t5 isn't any better than a 6 cyl t5 as far as strength is concerned, I don't know why they are longer, there could be a bunch of reasons for it

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The v8 input shift is definitely longer.
I had both manual boxes sitting side by side at 1 point.
The v8 factory bellhousing was deeper, I'm assuming for a bigger clutch assembly.

Can't remember if there was much difference in shifter extension but the v8 box would have sat back a bit further just from that

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The v8 input shift is definitely longer.
I had both manual boxes sitting side by side at 1 point.
The v8 factory bellhousing was deeper, I'm assuming for a bigger clutch assembly.

Can't remember if there was much difference in shifter extension but the v8 box would have sat back a bit further just from that

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I think it might be to do with engine placement of the V8 vs 6, or parts availability of the V8 bellhousing (Mustang). The difference in input length is 5/8” (16mm) I believe.

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Thanks @ashXFute @gerg

 

e-series would have the same problem as x-series, unless they released a different floor tunnel for the v8? 

OR as I was thinking earlier - could possibly be that the back of the windsor motor is mounted further forward that the 4.0l? - exactly what gerg said.

 

Ive reached out to CRS but not in detail about this. Let me have more of a proper conversation with them and Ill get back to you all. 

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On 10/19/2021 at 4:59 PM, fotz said:

 

 

I dont believe the clevo and windsor is mounted in the same spot. As we know that if you try to mount a clevo in the XF, the heater pipes get in the way. But I could be wrong. I am probably overthinking this.. so please let me know if I am crazy here.

 

 

That is true about the heater hoses in the firewall getting in the way, since I had a clevo in a 85 XF,.....but a work around is ( if your not interested in A.C ), is to plumb the heater hoses into the AC core...........( some hunting in supercheap for S bend heater hoses did the trick )and I guarantee you 100%.......you will get better heat in the cabin, thanks to the bigger AC core....and i just cut the ends of the original heater core and plumbed them up............

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Been a while since I've seen a Clevo in an XF or ZL, but, I would have thought by now that someone like CRS or Tuff Mounts would have a lowered/altered engine mount to suit. 

 

Still, a couple of love taps with a BFH on the firewall, and it fits.......

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2 hours ago, bear351c said:

Been a while since I've seen a Clevo in an XF or ZL, but, I would have thought by now that someone like CRS or Tuff Mounts would have a lowered/altered engine mount to suit. 

 

Still, a couple of love taps with a BFH on the firewall, and it fits.......

i did see one once where they modded the engine base mounts and had the engine moved forward, but then you need a longer tailshaft.. and probably need to be sure there's space for thermo fans etc. 

the hammer works, flipping the heater core upside down and drilling new holes in the firewall for it used to be popular

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Are dellow still around?? That is the bellhousing I got in mine, yes it's not a Windsor or xf but they were great with the information at the time, from what I been told with the v8 t5 is yes input is longer but the rear housing was shorter to put the sticking same spot, like they did with the cortina using the single rail box's, as Ford wouldn't change the floor pan tooling just to suit v8 or 6 cylinder box's, one of the others guys would be able to correct if wrong.

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7 hours ago, jca25 said:

Are dellow still around?? That is the bellhousing I got in mine, yes it's not a Windsor or xf but they were great with the information at the time, from what I been told with the v8 t5 is yes input is longer but the rear housing was shorter to put the sticking same spot, like they did with the cortina using the single rail box's, as Ford wouldn't change the floor pan tooling just to suit v8 or 6 cylinder box's, one of the others guys would be able to correct if wrong.

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I spoke with Dellow, they had an interesting opinion on this - they dont believe the CRS bellhousing will work on a v8, which I found strange. I challenged them on this at the time. There thoughts were that the bellhousing was bigger for a reason - e.g clutch\pressure plate. Which I have found out is definately not the case. To be fair they were going to double check this.

 

Also, have confirmed the eseries v8 gearbox has exactly the same rear extension housing as a 6cyl. A gearbox guy I spoke to confirmed they have the same part number. Also you can see in photos they are the same. The only difference is:

1) Input shaft length (longer for v8)

2) internal gears inside - e.g 1st gear 2.95 for v8

 

This makes me believe that an e-series 4.0l and v8 are mounted in different positions. E.g the Windsor is mounted more forward. Makes sense to be honest as the 4.0l needs room for 6 cyl, and the v8 only needs 4. Also would need to be balanced better in the engine bay of an e-series.

 

(I am not 100% sure of this, but based on the facts presented, this makes sense)

 

I just need to check now in the x-series, is the 4.1 crossflow mounted in the same spot as the windsor. I think it would be, as they use the same single rail gearbox. The shifter ends up through the same floor panel based on what I have read up on.

 

I also going to speak with Malwood. I believe when I spoke to them a while back, they said, the clutch cable is also different... and you also need to change the clutch pedal. This was very interesting, as I have not read this anywhere.... Not sure if anyone agrees with this also?

 

Also still trying to get in touch with CRS.

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55 minutes ago, fotz said:

I spoke with Dellow, they had an interesting opinion on this - they dont believe the CRS bellhousing will work on a v8,

 

after @BGDAV experience with Dellow and the T56 gearbox (poorly machined bell housing needed Mal Wood to rejig and redrill it and rebuild the T56 that was damaged due to the alignment issue... i'd be cautious of dealing with them.. however BGDAV did have a Dellow bell on a 6cyl E series box in an XE with clevo prior with no issues. 

 

i am certain CRS Bell housing for clevo(also windsor) for the 6cyl box exists, i recall it also being drilled or available for single rail/top loader

actually., 5second google found it

https://www.rodshop.com.au/bellhousing-for-ford-t5-6-cyl-gearboxes-to-windsor

Bellhousing for Ford T5 6 Cyl Gearboxes to Windsor or Cleveland Engines

 

bh100kit.jpg?20210617103403

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