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fotz

XF AU Windsor conversion

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Hi All

 

Looking for advice here around the best way to tackle this. I recently purchased an 87 XF 5 speed manual with carby. I have also picked up an AU fairlaine 5.0l windsor efi with ecu, Harness, fuse box, and engine components and want to slot this in. Ide like to keep it manual.

 

Below are my thoughts on this:

 

1) Engine mounts - will use the xd/xe base plates and engine mounts for Cleveland. So im sweet there

 

2) Headers - pacemakers for gt40p heads suit XB to XF - link 

 

3) Gearbox - looking for a xr8 Manual gearbox / flywheel and bell housing from an eb-au - I assume any will do.

 

4) diff - looking for an el diff from xr6 or xr8 - 3.49 ratio. I’ve seen I’ll need to put larger bushes on the lower control arms, and also will need to do something with the handbrake cable plus the brake line

 

5) tailshaft - assume my xf tailshaft will fit - just need to change the yoke on the diff.

 

6) fuel tank - how different is the carby tank to the efi - do I need to track down and efi tank or is it easy to convert the tank? Also are the existing hoses ok?

 

7) ECU - should I just ditch the stock ecu and move to like a Holley terminator or should I still use it and consider a J3 performance chip?

 

8. Wiring/harness - Can I track down a DIY guide or anything similar to assist with the conversion in the xf. I have noticed that the rod shop offer a retro wiring look - is this worth looking into?

 

9. Radiator - going to use a 3 core radiator(from xd-xf) and I’m sure I’ll find some radiator hoses to suit. Also I’m sure you can find someone with thermos as well to suit this radiator- so not too stressed about this.

 

Thanks again guys :) I know this has been done before - so looking for lessons learnt - and best way to handle this. Happy to share my findings as I got to help others doing the same.

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Hi mate, looks like a good starting point.  

 

Assume you've got GT40p heads to suit the extractors.?  Fuel pump, tank and lines are bin job. Tank can be modified for return lines etc, prob easier to grab one from an EFI XF, or ZL.

Fuel pump pressure for carbies is approx 5-8 psi, EFI runs around 100.!  Get EFI fuel hoses on everthing, pump sits in tank, and has return from fuel rail/injectors. Change to metal fuel filters as well. Been looking for a T5 manual for my next project, they're pretty scarce these days, blokes who have them wont sell. 

 

Diff should bolt in with the larger bushes. Aren't they oval shaped or something @Thom ?

 

XF radiator is good enough for a 351 Clevo, so in good nick, will do fine with fan and shroud. AU or EF fans can be fitted if you prefer. Make/modify the shroud. 

 

Wiring is sh!t, don't do it, hate it, pay someone else to do it, frekkin hate wiring........  stoopid little crimp lugs, and dumb ar5e coloured cables. ......

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EFi fuel pressure is more like 40-60 psi N/A, Eg XE EFi 36psi, AU is 275kpa/40psi AU XR is 300kpa/43psi, will need EFi rated hoses & clamps, 5/16" fuel line is a bit on the small size, 3/8" would be better, 5/16" could be used as returnline, not sure on fitting EFi pump to carby tank

2. double check if GT40 or GT40P heads as GT40P had the different plug angle, GT40s might work with normal XDEF windsor extractors, did see a XE wagon with factory 5.0 headers

5. I'd use E series tailshaft stronger tailshaft to diff flange mount,

7. I'd say Terminator X, But to pass engineering may need factory ECU for emissions standards, or may have to pass a IM240 emissions test (heard is like $1200 pass or fail) best talk with engineer on that.

9. EF/EL AU/BA BF/FG Falcon Thermo fans fit XDEF radiator with a bit of trimming on mounts & for top hose, or there are ebay alloy radiators with thermo fans, I have AU fans on my V8 3 core.

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Thanks guys for all the suggestions.

 

I’ll try source a fuel tank and upgrade the fuel pump and fuel lines based on your suggestions. Thermos shouldn’t be a problem - there are heaps of options available :)

 

With the heads, how do I know if they are gt40 or gt40p heads. I thought all AU’s - including fairlaine all had gt40p heads?

 

thanks

 

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All au's other than some ts50's were supposed to have gt40p's, e series diff will go straight in with using xf bushes on the car end and e series bushes on the diff end of the controll arms and you will need a metric brake flare nut to connect the brake line to the e series diff (most xr8 only had a 3.23 open diff, 3.45 lsd wasn't standard until el xr8 all xr6 and 6 cyl fairmont ghias had 3.45 lsd standard) a steel e series tailshaft is a better choice than a xf one but an alloy e series tailshaft is not, you want to find an eb to el t5 as the au and later t5's have a longer extension housing and the shifter is further back, be prepared to pay upwards of 1500- 2k for a 5.0 t5 set-up unless you get extremely lucky, make sure the headers you have will clear a left hand starter

 

 

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Thanks for that mate. Didn’t realise the t5 from au wouldn’t fit. The e series t5 are hard to find Alright :(

 

Does anyone know if those pacemakers will fit, if not what other options are there. I have heard of some issues with the starter.

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For the ECU - what have most people done. Have they stuck with the standard ECU from the E-series or AU - or has anyone moved to a Holley\Halltech. Keen to see some good real life examples and what has worked best :)

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Hi all, was having a look at my fuel tank today and I am a little confused... To be honest, first time mucking around with this.

 

The tank looks very similar to EFI. Does anyone know the differences?

 

Could I not just get an EFI fuel pump and cradle from another XF or wont it fit? Or can I modify the existing one and turn it into an electic pump? Is it already an electric pump?

 

Note, this is a XF 87 falcon. Assume this is not an electric pump, and the wiring is just for the sender?

 

tank.jpeg.5a9fdfe8c89c785d029c681573224a4b.jpeg

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, fotz said:

Hi all, was having a look at my fuel tank today and I am a little confused... To be honest, first time mucking around with this.

 

The tank looks very similar to EFI. Does anyone know the differences?

 

Could I not just get an EFI fuel pump and cradle from another XF or wont it fit? Or can I modify the existing one and turn it into an electic pump? Is it already an electric pump?

 

Note, this is a XF 87 falcon. Assume this is not an electric pump, and the wiring is just for the sender?

 

tank.jpeg.5a9fdfe8c89c785d029c681573224a4b.jpeg

 

 

 

the HOLE for the pump/sender assy is smaller on the carby tank

so the swirl pot from EFI won't fit in there.  

you could strap an efi pump to what's there but it won't have the swirl pot, also the EFI tank is bigger (wider) holds more fuel, (unless the carby one is from a carby fairlane/s pack, ghia etc. )

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18 hours ago, deankdx said:

the HOLE for the pump/sender assy is smaller on the carby tank

so the swirl pot from EFI won't fit in there.  

you could strap an efi pump to what's there but it won't have the swirl pot, also the EFI tank is bigger (wider) holds more fuel, (unless the carby one is from a carby fairlane/s pack, ghia etc. )

 

Thanks @deankdx

Its an XF Spack. Does this mean I can just use the carby tank - and just use an EFI pump with cradle? Or are you saying the tank is just bigger in capacity and thats it?

 

I an trying to source an EFI tank. I think I have found one. It comes with the cradle, but its missing the sender. Apparently these are hard to come by. Any ideas around this or alternatives?

 

I am looking at changing the gauges anyway, to saas gauges, I was thinking I could fit an saas sender to the cradle?

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27 minutes ago, fotz said:

 

Thanks @deankdx

Its an XF Spack. Does this mean I can just use the carby tank - and just use an EFI pump with cradle? Or are you saying the tank is just bigger in capacity and thats it?

 

I an trying to source an EFI tank. I think I have found one. It comes with the cradle, but its missing the sender. Apparently these are hard to come by. Any ideas around this or alternatives?

 

I am looking at changing the gauges anyway, to saas gauges, I was thinking I could fit an saas sender to the cradle?

 

S pack carby tank is same size as the efi tanks(68litres i think) (the base model was closer to 50L)
 

if you remove the current fuel tank sender unit you'll see it has a pick up screen on a pipe where fuel gets sucked from. you could possibly fit a small efi pump on that sender unit and run it as it is, it would be very tight to fit a universal fuel gauge sender in there ALSO . 

** the EFI tank has a bigger opening, with a swirl pot built into the fuel pump holder, it's probably not essential, but it would be better. due to the bigger opening, it makes it easier to add a universal sender for aftermarket gauge also..

 

i'll draw you a pic 

ArgzbID.jpg

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Thanks @deankdx - your a legend mate. So useful :)

 

Ive just tracked down an EFI tank, and I have got the pump as well :) 

 

Looks like the much cleaner option. Should i upgrade the pump for the AU, while its out, if so what do you guys recommend as easy replacement?

 

For the fuel lines I was thinking of using the existing feed line pipe as the return, and creating a new feed line. Not sure exactly what size, and also what's the best product to use yet.

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10 minutes ago, fotz said:

Thanks @deankdx - your a legend mate. So useful :)

 

Ive just tracked down an EFI tank, and I have got the pump as well :) 

 

Looks like the much cleaner option. Should i upgrade the pump for the AU, while its out, if so what do you guys recommend as easy replacement?

 

For the fuel lines I was thinking of using the existing feed line pipe as the return, and creating a new feed line. Not sure exactly what size, and also what's the best product to use yet.

 

when i did the lexus V8(180kw ish)  into XE i used both existing lines fuel and return, and the XF efi fuel pump (new though) was put on the dyno to make sure it kept up and was confirmed fine (approx 140rwkw) 

i would assume a windsor from AU would be fine with both, but you probably should check it(i used to have a good dyno tuner i could ask to verify,  but no idea these days) 

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Thanks @deankdx 

Keen to know what the fuel lines are for the EL-AU falcon. Ideally I should be aiming for the same. Anyone know this?

 

I believe XF main line is 5/16" and Return line is much smaller, - maybe 1\4" and the breather would be 1\8"

 

I think 3\4 would be better...

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48 minutes ago, fotz said:

Thanks @deankdx 

Keen to know what the fuel lines are for the EL-AU falcon. Ideally I should be aiming for the same. Anyone know this?

 

I believe XF main line is 5/16" and Return line is much smaller, - maybe 1\4" and the breather would be 1\8"

 

I think 3\4 would be better...

 

i think the XE/XF EFI lines are bigger(or return is bigger than the carby one) probably same size as E series. @Thom may know, he's played with these things a bit

 

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Ok I got my hands on an AU workshop manual - it shows the pump sizes fittings, I would presume the hose would be the same:

 

I cant locate an XF manual to see what Carby has - but I know mine has a return line, which is good. Just not sure of the sizes exactly.

image.png.e611735c33c8ab30fcf7f7d25e3b322c.png

 

In regards to fuel pressures, I did find the following for the XF:

image.png.545065a50669760f270b5a3ccbe3c6f0.png

 

And the AU falcon pump specs:

image.png.e7b1523fccc441f8acf170e925d00110.png

 

So if i read this correctly.

There are very close, but AU pump looks slightly stronger.

 

Not sure what what (I6HO) is?

 

So to be safe it might be better to go with a stonger pump.

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33 minutes ago, fotz said:

Ok I got my hands on an AU workshop manual - it shows the pump sizes fittings, I would presume the hose would be the same:

 

I cant locate an XF manual to see what Carby has - but I know mine has a return line, which is good. Just not sure of the sizes exactly.

image.png.e611735c33c8ab30fcf7f7d25e3b322c.png

 

In regards to fuel pressures, I did find the following for the XF:

 

So if i read this correctly.

There are very close, but AU pump looks slightly stronger.

 

Not sure what what (I6HO) is?

 

So to be safe it might be better to go with a stonger pump.

 

i'd use the pump designed for the engine if i was choosing. so AU engine with AU fuel regulator. i'd use an AU fuel pump. 

 

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Hi All

 

Just providing some updates below for anyone interested in.

 

Fuel

I got an EFI tank including pump and cradle. This currenlty has 5\16" connections for fuel and return. As the AU falcon has a 3\8" I am going to move to this, will need some of 5\16" to 3\8" adaptor from pump to line. Also need to sort out quick connections on the motor. Will get this from TI performance as thats where I am getting the pump from.

 

Diff

I also sourced a diff from an EF falcon XR6. 3.45 lsd. So I will be doing a conversion to this. Have got the brake line adaptor. I have found few places that will do the handbrake cable for me as well, will share details when I get this done. I know I have to sort out the bushes on the arms as well for this, so will let you all know what the best solution was for this as well.

 

ECU\Harness

I am going to run the stock AU ECU with the ECU Harness. I went with the rod shop, who can modify the AU harness to fit the XF and provide step by step intructions for the install. Also getting a J3 chip from TI performance as well. So waiting for this to come in.

 

Gearbox

This one is hard. The v8 box is impossible to find and really expensive. So I currently have an XF falcon 5 speed, which I believe are pretty weak. The rod shop currently have bellhousing that can adapt the shorter input shaft of a 6cyl gearbox to the windsor motor. I am thinking of going with an E series manual t5 gearbox.

Anyone done this before and is it reliable? I know the ratios are different in the box as well, but keen to get some feedback around this? 

Also does anyone know if the XH ute gearbox is the stronger e-series box, or is the same t5 from the XF?

Also is the steel tailshaft from a ute the same as the sedan? 

 

Will keep you all posted on all of the above as I get more updates :)

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4 hours ago, fotz said:

Also does anyone know if the XH ute gearbox is the stronger e-series box, or is the same t5 from the XF?

Also is the steel tailshaft from a ute the same as the sedan? 

**i haven't got enough brain to check the rest over thoroughly 

i have differing opinions to some here, and believe the XF T5 is weaker than the EB series 2 and onwards(EA T5 not sure but EB was improved in my opinion.. from discussions with gearbox specialists 20yrs ago) = XH box will be same as an EF EL T5 which i would say is better than XF(ratios are a bit different)
 

 

the sedan tailshaft of a falcon is shorter than all the others (wagon, ute, van, fairlane LTD) so you'd ideally get the tailshaft from an EB -EL falcon/fairmont XR6/XR8 sedan (other ways are not as good but possible) 

 

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11 minutes ago, fotz said:

Thanks @deankdx 

is the tailshaft for auto/manual the same and 6 cyl and v8 the same?

yeah they are same enough. some manuals had a heavy ballance weight thing on the end of the yoke near gearbox, i've never used one with it, but @Panko i think has it or @Mr Polson 

i've never had an issue without it, and had T5s in about 6 different cars over the years at least. 

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yeah they are same enough. some manuals had a heavy ballance weight thing on the end of the yoke near gearbox, i've never used one with it, but [mention=74]Panko[/mention] i think has it or [mention=21]Mr Polson[/mention] 
i've never had an issue without it, and had T5s in about 6 different cars over the years at least. 
I think only some T5s had that balance thing.

I don't have it on mine, no issues at all.

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18 hours ago, fotz said:

 

Fuel

I got an EFI tank including pump and cradle. This currenlty has 5\16" connections for fuel and return. As the AU falcon has a 3\4" I am going to move to this, will need some of 5\16" to 3\4" adaptor from pump to line.

 

Gearbox

This one is hard. The v8 box is impossible to find and really expensive.

 

Fuel.  I'm guessing you mean 3/8".  ??   3/4" is about the size of a 10c coin.! 

 

Gearbox.   Yeah, I'm still looking for one myself, crazy prices. Mal Wood has some Mustang ones for 5 grand..... Holy carp.

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1 hour ago, bear351c said:

 

Fuel.  I'm guessing you mean 3/8".  ??   3/4" is about the size of a 10c coin.! 

 

Gearbox.   Yeah, I'm still looking for one myself, crazy prices. Mal Wood has some Mustang ones for 5 grand..... Holy carp.

lol yeah 3\8" i fixed it up now. Sorry not the first time I have done that.

 

Yeah im checking with malwood and also t5 doctor is another company I have seen as well.. 

 

E series - 6cyl I think is the way to go nowadays. Need to get really luck to find one of these v8 boxes :(

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As a general rule with gearboxes, the deeper the ratio in 1st, the lower the torque capacity. This is derived from the amount of reduction given by the input shaft gear to layshaft ratio. The deeper this ratio, the more torque multiplication happens internally and this will reduce the overall torque capacity of the box.

So an XF-EA-EB1 will have 3.50 first (as mine does) and later ones will be a little taller (3.35 springs to mind).

The T5Z has a 2.95 1st, not overly tall like the close ratio toploader or single rail variants but this plus a wider gear design increased the torque capacity to 310 lb-ft vs 265 for the normal ones. This makes them still marginal behind a large displacement small block though.

Manual boxes are a niche market these days, so the few manufacturers left can basically name their price.

Sent from my CPH1920 using Tapatalk

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