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Panko

HELP - XF to EL ECU issues

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Hi guys, 

 

anyone who follows along with my build thread would know that Ive converted the XF to run a J3 chipper EL ECU. 

 

Since the beginning ive had issues with the ISC valve, which I thought I had sorted. It has recently started giving me issues again, and have fitted a brand new EL ISC valve, which I have mounted remotely and piped back to the engine like the original XF one. 

 

Even with the new ISC, im still having issues. 

 

at first i had it piped the wrong way i think, so turned it around. but now, I have major rev hang. it is the one and only thing that is making this conversion s***.

 

So the ones who have done it, how did you setup the ISC circuit? 

 

 

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Hi guys, 

 

anyone who follows along with my build thread would know that Ive converted the XF to run a J3 chipper EL ECU. 

 

Since the beginning ive had issues with the ISC valve, which I thought I had sorted. It has recently started giving me issues again, and have fitted a brand new EL ISC valve, which I have mounted remotely and piped back to the engine like the original XF one. 

 

Even with the new ISC, im still having issues. 

 

at first i had it piped the wrong way i think, so turned it around. but now, I have major rev hang. it is the one and only thing that is making this conversion s***.

 

So the ones who have done it, how did you setup the ISC circuit? 

 

 

Try redoing the idle setting.

Run the car until warm, unplug the ISC and set the RPM to 550-650rpm.

Don't rev it or anything while doing this.

Then plug the ISC back in and it should idle around 700-750rpm.

 

It's the T.I. j3 that causes the rev hang.

When you back off the accelerator usually in the ecu is a bit of retard that is added as you decelerate.

Their advice is always it's the ISC. What a crock. More like sloppy tuning.

 

I found it also using an MSD with a curve and no ecu input, the rev hang was a bit stupid. So now I let the ECU control timing, no more problem.

 

I'm running a stock XH ecu with very little rev hang now.

 

There will be a way to add the retard in deceleration on the j3 but I don't know where.

Sorry mate.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my S21 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

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On 7/15/2021 at 10:01 AM, Outback Jack said:

Try redoing the idle setting.

Run the car until warm, unplug the ISC and set the RPM to 550-650rpm.

Don't rev it or anything while doing this.

Then plug the ISC back in and it should idle around 700-750rpm.

 

It's the T.I. j3 that causes the rev hang.

When you back off the accelerator usually in the ecu is a bit of retard that is added as you decelerate.

Their advice is always it's the ISC. What a crock. More like sloppy tuning.

 

I found it also using an MSD with a curve and no ecu input, the rev hang was a bit stupid. So now I let the ECU control timing, no more problem.

 

I'm running a stock XH ecu with very little rev hang now.

 

There will be a way to add the retard in deceleration on the j3 but I don't know where.

Sorry mate.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my S21 using Tapatalk

 

 

 


thanks jack. 
since i posted this. I found a vacuum hose had popped off the intake. That made a big difference fixing that. 
 

rev hang gone, fuel pressure back to normal. 
 

i then drove it to my partner’s house, and it seemed fine. Drove really nicely. It sat for 4 hours before I left to come home. Again it seemed to be ok. Fired up and ran fine. 
 

today, after sitting for a week. I went to start it, and it wouldn’t idle. Too low, almost like the ISC wasn’t doing anything. 
 

i managed to get it to idle by turning the air bypass screw (idle adjustment on XF TB) out, which increases idle speed. Obviously doing this when its cold goes against how I am meant to set idle. 
 

Once it started warming up, of course the idle was high, about 1000-1100rpm. It stayed up for a bit, my temp gauge on the dash showing normal temp, so figured id pull over and turn the idle down to try set it the correct way. As i pulled over it seemed to settle to normal. 
 

Do they generally have a “cold start temp” in which at a set coolant temp (different sensor to dash) they come off cold start, hence dropping the idle down, almost like a switch? 
 

if so, it means all the stuffing about i did initially was before it had come off cold start. 
so tomorrow ill have to try it again when its dead cold. 

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27 minutes ago, Panko said:

Once it started warming up, of course the idle was high, about 1000-1100rpm. It stayed up for a bit, my temp gauge on the dash showing normal temp, so figured id pull over and turn the idle down to try set it the correct way. As i pulled over it seemed to settle to normal. 
 

Do they generally have a “cold start temp” in which at a set coolant temp (different sensor to dash) they come off cold start, hence dropping the idle down, almost like a switch? 
 

if so, it means all the stuffing about i did initially was before it had come off cold start. 
so tomorrow ill have to try it again when its dead cold. 

i know you are trying to do it with factory stuff. but what's stopping you from having a solenoid on a vacuum line with carby jet or something letting a bit of air in and plumbed into the air intake post filter/pre throttle body. triggered by a temp switch(Davies Craig or on off type if you know what it's meant to be) 

 

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10 minutes ago, deankdx said:

i know you are trying to do it with factory stuff. but what's stopping you from having a solenoid on a vacuum line with carby jet or something letting a bit of air in and plumbed into the air intake post filter/pre throttle body. triggered by a temp switch(Davies Craig or on off type if you know what it's meant to be) 

 


i think because these systems are so sensitive to vacuum etc, it may upset it. 
 

essentially the coolant temp sensor is that switch. 
but something related to the cold start function isn’t getting the right message? 

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thanks jack. 
since i posted this. I found a vacuum hose had popped off the intake. That made a big difference fixing that. 
 
rev hang gone, fuel pressure back to normal. 
 
i then drove it to my partner’s house, and it seemed fine. Drove really nicely. It sat for 4 hours before I left to come home. Again it seemed to be ok. Fired up and ran fine. 
 
today, after sitting for a week. I went to start it, and it wouldn’t idle. Too low, almost like the ISC wasn’t doing anything. 
 
i managed to get it to idle by turning the air bypass screw (idle adjustment on XF TB) out, which increases idle speed. Obviously doing this when its cold goes against how I am meant to set idle. 
 
Once it started warming up, of course the idle was high, about 1000-1100rpm. It stayed up for a bit, my temp gauge on the dash showing normal temp, so figured id pull over and turn the idle down to try set it the correct way. As i pulled over it seemed to settle to normal. 
 
Do they generally have a “cold start temp” in which at a set coolant temp (different sensor to dash) they come off cold start, hence dropping the idle down, almost like a switch? 
 
if so, it means all the stuffing about i did initially was before it had come off cold start. 
so tomorrow ill have to try it again when its dead cold. 
The coolant temp sensor in the brass fitting off the side of the head is where the ECU gets its coolant temp from, and adjusts idle speed based on that. I don't think it's as simple as fast idle on or off, fast idle should slowly come down as temp goes up.

E series have that switch in the thermostat housing, and from memory it's the same part number.

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6 minutes ago, Mr Polson said:

The coolant temp sensor in the brass fitting off the side of the head is where the ECU gets its coolant temp from, and adjusts idle speed based on that. I don't think it's as simple as fast idle on or off, fast idle should slowly come down as temp goes up.

E series have that switch in the thermostat housing, and from memory it's the same part number.


correct. 
You have reinforced my thoughts that it should adjust as coolant temp raises. 
 

I am absolutely losing my mind trying to figure out whats wrong. 
 

I tried piping the ISC valve the opposite way, it held revs. Same if i flipped the polarity in the wiring. 
the way i have it seems to be the only way it works, but now it wont start essentially because its holding the rpm too low, as if the ISC is doing nothing. 
 

Im getting a bit over it 😡 

i miss the car being turn key and drive. I seem to spend more time working on it now trying to make it run, than i do actually driving it. 
 

maybe the brand new EL ISC valve isn’t suitable. 
maybe i have to go back to running an EB unit. They are different style, maybe thats the issue. 
 

for all intents and purposes this is generally an easy conversion, but the cold start side of it just seems to be way more complex than it needs to be. I have no idea why

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I would go back to the EB one , you seemed to have more success with that.
I now run EL/XH ecu with ED/XG ISC no probs.
Setting the idle exactly in the order I listed is the only way to get it to play ball.
That's for a manual around 700-800rpm at idle.
Start car, disconnect ISC while running.
RPM should drop to 500-600rpm.
If too low and stalls turn idle up 1/2 turn and try again.
It can be a bit of a s*** but once you get it in the sweet spot, you should get an 800-900rpm cold idle , 700-750/800rpm warm idle.
Hope that helps.


Sent from my S21 using Tapatalk

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I may be barking up the wrong tree here, but I do remember e series being sensitive to engine temp vs tune, ( if i remember correctly this was covered a couple of years ago in outback jacks ute thread) you may have to change thermostat to get your engine temps up to 96° (i think that's what e series are supposed to run at from memory) if its not running up to temp properly as far as the ecu is concerned it may only be adjusting the cold start table and throwing it off

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Ok interesting test this morning. 
 

fired the car up, and it was idling very low, like under 500rpm with the ISC valve still connected. 
i had to hold the throttle to keep it alive. Once it was able to idle on its own, i turned the idle up to keep it alive. At this stage obviously ive thrown the tuning way out. 
 

took it for a drive, as it warmed up idle was sitting up around 1100rpm. So as i got it up to temp, i pulled up to adjust the idle, it started running super rough and losing power. Wouldn’t rev up etc. i managed to limp it into the carpark then it conked out on me. This has happened a few times now. 
The issue now is that the car wont start. It will crank, and i can smell fuel so the injectors are working, but won’t fire. After about 10 minutes it fired up again, but obviously very flooded, because it runs like a bag of bolts and blows lots of black smoke until it clears. In this time it wont idle on its own. 
So maybe i have another underlying issue, being the ignition system. 
 

Once the car is running again, it feels fine. Drives well. So i get home, leave it idling to try adjust the base idle. Disconnect the ISC and the idle does not change. 
its like the ISC valve is just not functioning. Weird. 
 

I doubt i got a brand new faulty out of the box ISC valve, so is anyone able to confirm which hole is before the butterfly and which is after, for an EL ISC valve? 
 

Thanks to Jack for confirming the orientation of the EB unit. 
Id just like to know I have the EL unit hooked up correctly before bailing and going back to the EB unit.  

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23 hours ago, Outback Jack said:

I would go back to the EB one , you seemed to have more success with that.
I now run EL/XH ecu with ED/XG ISC no probs.
Setting the idle exactly in the order I listed is the only way to get it to play ball.
That's for a manual around 700-800rpm at idle.
Start car, disconnect ISC while running.
RPM should drop to 500-600rpm.
If too low and stalls turn idle up 1/2 turn and try again.
It can be a bit of a s*** but once you get it in the sweet spot, you should get an 800-900rpm cold idle , 700-750/800rpm warm idle.
Hope that helps.


Sent from my S21 using Tapatalk
 

 

A little bit of progress forward.... i think. 

 

I did a bench test across 12v to compare the EB and EL ISC. the EB unit moves a lot more than the EL unit does when a quick 12v supply is given to it, just to be sure they move. 

if holding the valves in the same orientation, they also move opposite directions. 

 

I have gone back to running the EB ISC, because as Jack said, I seemed to have more success with that. 

Immediately it was better on cold start with the EB ISC, but when I took it for a drive, I immediately noticed i had rev hand again. Pulled over once it was at temp to check it, and wouldn't ya know it, i could hear another vacuum leak. 

This time it was the hose clamp around the pip from ISC to plenum that had failed, allowing it suck air in from around the hose end :( 

 

I don't have any suitable spare hose clamps, so that is where I left it for now. I feel im getting very close to having it back to right, or at least drivable, but I just keep having these little issues. 

 

If I sort out all the annoying vacuum leaks that keep rearing their ugly heads, and I still can't get the car running happy, I will return it back to stock, which I know was super reliable. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Lord_fahrquhar said:

Okay, eb and ef on are wired differently (reverse polarity)

 

Ef works by using vacuum to hold open the unit and power to restrict the idle back down.  ED and earlier use power to open up

 

 

ok ok that helps a lot. 

 

Im running EL, is it also wired backwards? 

 

If so, that explains a lot. 

So id be better running the EB/ED unit? 

 

 

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ok ok that helps a lot. 
 
Im running EL, is it also wired backwards? 
 
If so, that explains a lot. 

So id be better running the EB/ED unit? 
 
 
I think he means EL onward, which use the throttle-mounted ISC valves. If you wanted to use the later valve on the early remote setup, you'll need an adaptor plate with hoses coming in and out

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7 hours ago, gerg said:

I think he means EL onward, which use the throttle-mounted ISC valves. If you wanted to use the later valve on the early remote setup, you'll need an adaptor plate with hoses coming in and out

Sent from my CPH1920 using Tapatalk
 


yeah thats how ive done is thus far. 
and in theory it should work. 
 

EB/ED and EF/EL are all mounted to TB bu I believe work opposite directions

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Finally had some luck with this. But still not out of the water.

 

I have found 1 last vacuum leak, which i believe is causing me grief. its self inflicted but i think i have managed to repair it. It was the mating face between the ISC and the adapter plate I made wasn't getting a good seal and I was able to blow air through it with my mouth. 
I have since fixed that, and will try tomorrow. Fingers crossed it has solved the issue. 

 

Thanks for all the help guys. 

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Well guys, after 3 days straight trying different things, i still couldn't get the car to run right. I still dont get what went wrong, what started all this and caused these problems, when I had it running fine until June. 

 

Anyway, i know it was directly related to the ISC valve, and today in trying every possible solution, I tried plugging in the original XF unit. which generally speaking it should not work, and doesn't work properly with EL injection. 

 

Well, the original XF unit, is by far giving the best result. So i have plugged it back in, and put the original pipes back in, and took it for a drive, it seems happy. Granted, it was tested at full running temperature. So tomorrow morning, when its bone cold, I will fire it up and see how it goes on cold start with the XF ISC valve. 

 

It isn't 100% with the XF ISC, but its definitely bearable. 
What it's doing is, it holds the idle at around 900-1000rpm for a couple seconds before settling down to normal idle. but it is consistent. it drives really well, fine changing gears etc. but the idle hold before resting is something i guess ill just get used to. 

 

I still intend to get my brother to CNC cut a solid billet alloy block to mount the E series ISC to, and test it again with a much better built mounting block, and go from there. but at this stage, the XF unit with EL injection seems ot be the best result. 

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You have an air bypass, so the XF ISC probably has a different level of bypass to the EA and EL series. As the later series only use the ISC to control idle etc.

Don't worry Panko, I have had the same problem with the j3 on my ute with EL ecu and XH ecu.
No j3......no rev hang....
It's like you say, the deceleration just hangs and takes ages to drop.

With the XF ISC, try setting base idle again. You may find it comes good.

If not, blanking plate on the ISC and just run the air bypass.

Sent from my S21 using Tapatalk

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