XFtoXE 14 Posted August 21, 2020 Hey guysI had a problem starting up a 302 after it had been sitting for a while. Not sure how long, but was told it had new lifters and heads had been remanufactured. So after putting it on a engine stand and starting it up, it would only run for about 2 minutes and then stall. After pulling it apart and not finding any thing wrong until I pulled out the lifters all were good except one which is stuffed.Any answers why this would happen will be appreciated Cheers Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk 1 CHESTNUTXE reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gregaust 319 Posted August 21, 2020 Oh no, that has wiped the cam. Possibly the lifter was stuck and not rotating. New cam & lifters required plus a teardown to clean out the metal 2 CHESTNUTXE and scottly reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHESTNUTXE 7,299 Posted August 21, 2020 yes yes listen to obi won you must Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XFtoXE 14 Posted August 21, 2020 Yea I think I new that just needed to hear from someone else Thanks guys 1 CHESTNUTXE reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHESTNUTXE 7,299 Posted August 21, 2020 could be a few causes like lifter preload was too much or valve springs are too heavy,and or pushrods too long as if its been rebuilt a bit of meat off the block and heads could mean around 40thou increase ,when rebuilding it check the lifter preload should be around 3/4 of a turn but anymore than 1 full turn you need to shim the pedastil i have done exacxtly the same as your picture the lifter came out as if been ground out,best just pull the motor out and put a gaskit kit thru it and wash everything well and re assemble with new cam n lifters. 1 1 scottly and gregaust reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerg 10,871 Posted August 21, 2020 What were the circumstances under which it was running? Idling for long periods when cold, not enough zinc in the oil, or incorrect oil altogether could have caused this. How new is the cam? If it was new a few years ago from when it ran last time, the damage could already have been done back then by an incorrect break-in.They also had bad batches of lifters doing the rounds for a period. Lots of heartache stories like yours were quite common for a while until the lifter manufacturers caught on about the issue.Sent from my CPH1920 using Tapatalk 1 scottly reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BAWITHLOT 24 Posted August 21, 2020 I reckon it did not have any lube on it when it was run in. Very unlikely to be pushrods, springs or preload when all the rest are ok. I had a rebuilt engine do that and took 13K before it failed and out of warranty by a year! 1 scottly reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XFtoXE 14 Posted August 21, 2020 I reckon it did not have any lube on it when it was run in. Very unlikely to be pushrods, springs or preload when all the rest are ok. I had a rebuilt engine do that and took 13K before it failed and out of warranty by a year!I didn't know much about this engine when I bought it except what they told me. But some previous replies jogged my memory. First thing I did was to pressure test the cylinders. So all going well until number 6 (the lifter in question)and no pressure at all. I did this twice and no pressure thinking that the gauge is not working, third time I tried it came up 140 psi and thought no more about it.So is it possible the lobe was damaged at this time.Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk 1 scottly reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerg 10,871 Posted August 21, 2020 I have experienced this exact failure in my 302C and that pressure variance (ie compression and no compression) is caused by the unevenly worn lifter rotating alternately to the high and low spots. When it hits the worn bit, the hydraulic plunger pumps up to take up the clearance. Then the lifter rotates around to the high spot and then is over-pumped, holding the valve open constantly. Hence no compression when that happens. I could hear this with my engine running; clack-clack-clack, then silence but missing on that cylinder. Then it bled back down, clack-clack again, and the cycle continues.Sent from my CPH1920 using Tapatalk 2 1 deankxf, Thom and scottly reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FORD_MAN 1,026 Posted August 23, 2020 if it had new lifters, I'd say someone replaced them but didn't run them in, (same as when you run in a cam) which leeds to wearing lifters & cam, My Bro did it to his XF ute, new lifters on old cam didn't run them in, all lobes where worn down but also wore off 4 cam lobes worst had was cyl 6 that I measured at .140"/.118" valve lift best cyl 1 ex with .360", standard is around .420". But is a good excuse for a nice new cam 1 CHESTNUTXE reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XFtoXE 14 Posted August 23, 2020 if it had new lifters, I'd say someone replaced them but didn't run them in, (same as when you run in a cam) which leeds to wearing lifters & cam, My Bro did it to his XF ute, new lifters on old cam didn't run them in, all lobes where worn down but also wore off 4 cam lobes worst had was cyl 6 that I measured at .140"/.118" valve lift best cyl 1 ex with .360", standard is around .420". But is a good excuse for a nice new cam Hey guysJust thought I'd show you the cam.Spot on with the comments Any recommendations for a new cam?Nothing to extreme and reasonable priced Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bear351c 10,270 Posted August 23, 2020 Any other work done on the engine..? High compression, Stall speed, diff ratio, etc.. What do you want the engine to do? Drag Commy's off at the lights.? Cruise all day? Drive daily with reasonable fuel economy? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XFtoXE 14 Posted August 23, 2020 Any other work done on the engine..? High compression, Stall speed, diff ratio, etc.. What do you want the engine to do? Drag Commy's off at the lights.? Cruise all day? Drive daily with reasonable fuel economy?What I have found since pulling it apart is 020 bore. New timing gear. Standard iron heads ported. RPM air gap manifold ported. extractors 4 into 1. Sound like a v8 mainly with a bit of extra goSent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk 1 bear351c reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bear351c 10,270 Posted August 23, 2020 Cool. Have a look at the Crow or Crane catalogue, should be able to get one here in Oz. Comp, Lunati, Isky etc will prob come from overseas (may be hard to get at the moment) Crow do a budget version cam/lifter/retainers called Megatork, I think, and Crane do theirs as Blue Racer. Same cam billet, just brown paper packaging. Make sure you look at the cam specs for rev range (like 1,500 to 4,500 rpm) diff ratio, etc.. You need to change springs and retainers with some higher lift cams. 2 gerg and scottly reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SPArKy_Dave 8,863 Posted August 23, 2020 Make sure you have the correct small-hole lifters for a Cleveland, too. Windsor V8's have priority mains oiling, thus are not fussy with lifters. Clevelands however (and crossflows to my knowledge) are not priority mains oiled from factory, thus require small-hole lifters, to provide correct oil pressure to the main bearings. Windsor lifters will cause a slow internal destruction of bearings in a stock-oiled Cleveland. Windsor/Cleveland lifters are usually all the same HT900 part number. However the Windsor lifters, have a larger oil hole in the side. Be aware!... Design and Performance Issues Every way in which the 351C design deviated from the design of the SBF was to make an improvement, with one exception ... the lubrication system. The SBF utilized three lubrication passages; oil was supplied to the crankshaft main bearings first via a dedicated passage, then at the rear of the block the oil supply was split into two additional passages to supply the two banks of tappets; this is referred to as a main priority system. To save money the 351C was designed with only two lubrication passages, one for each bank of tappets. Lubrication for the crankshaft’s 3 central main bearings was supplied by branches intersecting the same oil passage shared by the right hand bank of tappets. Ford found it necessary to redesign the tappets installed in the 351C due to the large port in the wall of each tappet bore, a result of the way in which the tappet bores intersect the oil passages. Tappets designed for the SBF and 351W allowed too much oil to flow to the 351C valve train. When a 351C equipped with the "wrong" tappets is operated at higher rpm the rocker covers flood with oil while the oil pan is slowly pumped dry at the same time. Thus the 351C has compatibility issues with tappets having certain types of oil metering designs; this also illustrates the importance of limiting the amount of oil flowing to the 351C valve train. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dex 2,065 Posted August 23, 2020 What things change with the boss 302 motors ,? windsor with clevo heads Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FORD_MAN 1,026 Posted August 23, 2020 a quick search on Cleveland fireball 302A, came up with is a Crane cam 300/303adv 224/232@50 .505"/516". alright sized cam for a 302C would of made power to 6000rpm around 300hp at a guess, I'd get the springs tested (spring pressures & lift they suit) as they possibly already may suit a decent cam, I like Camtech Cams, & have a Crow cam in my cleveland, got a Camtech for a mates 302C, 1 scottly reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bear351c 10,270 Posted August 24, 2020 19 hours ago, dex said: What things change with the boss 302 motors ,? windsor with clevo heads Yeah, basically... think they also had screw in studs for the rocker gear, and screw in welsh plugs (core plugs) on the blocks. 2 CHESTNUTXE and gerg reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHESTNUTXE 7,299 Posted August 24, 2020 ive always wanted a mock boss for my stable,for a while there TRW did a clevo piston that went straight on a 302w rod for guys who wanted a mock boss engine,love to start with a cheap efi roller 5.0 block then add 2v alloys and edelbrock mock boss manifold but then you think ummm err why when you can buy a 302 cleveland . 1 gerg reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dex 2,065 Posted August 24, 2020 3 hours ago, bear351c said: Yeah, basically... think they also had screw in studs for the rocker gear, and screw in welsh plugs (core plugs) on the blocks. Was looking into the oiling system differences ,,, windsors had the oiling system ,, Clevo’s had the breathing with the heads ,, what lifter design /type would be the go ,? 1 CHESTNUTXE reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SPArKy_Dave 8,863 Posted August 24, 2020 17 minutes ago, dex said: Was looking into the oiling system differences ,,, windsors had the oiling system ,, Clevo’s had the breathing with the heads ,, what lifter design /type would be the go ,? Windsor block/rotating assembly = any old Ford D9HZ-6500-A lifters (or HT900 aftermarket equivalent), should work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerg 10,871 Posted August 24, 2020 Was looking into the oiling system differences ,,, windsors had the oiling system ,, Clevo’s had the breathing with the heads ,, what lifter design /type would be the go ,? Clevos onwards cheaped out with the oiling system. They ran the whole motor on 2 oil galleries that fed the left side of the lifters with one plus the mains and cam, the other crossing over and feeding the right lifter bank. 302 and 351Ws have 3, which by many accounts have been more than adequate. The problem is, the crank oiling requirements are actually greater with clevos, having 2.75" mains vs 2.25" for 302Ws, making the oil feed problem worse. The final contributor to this is that Clevos breathe well, meaning they like a rev. So crank journal surface speed is higher, rpm is higher, and oil is less plentiful. They also have a pissy sump capacity: 4.5 lites, meaning if a lot of oil gets to the top of the motor, the oil pump gets starved. Many modern 4 cylinders take as much oil as clevos used to.So they apparently spin #4 or 5 bearing when having a good go.There are ways of restricting the oil to one of the lifter galleries, which diverts more to the mains. It involves drilling and tapping a screw-in orifice up inside one of the oil feeds to the galleries.Another less-involved mod was to run an external line from the blanked-off oil port just near the fuel pump (oil comes straight out of the oil pump there) around to the oil pressure sender port at the back of the valley, to feed oil straight to the back of the motor.So... A Windsor bottom end would be better-oiled, lighter, smaller, have more parts readily available and be less costly, and if you get an earlier block, will be stronger in the bores than a Clevo. It's tempting to go and bolt on a set of Clevo heads but the reality is that there is a ridiculous amount of Windsor heads out there now that will flow and perform as good as a set of clevos for much less outlay, with all the other bolt-ons and valvetrain components being cheaper as well. Heads are also smaller and more compact than those on a Clevo.The boss heads would look tops, but you don't drive down the road with your head under the bonnet admiring your mad engine bits. Sent from my CPH1920 using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bear351c 10,270 Posted August 24, 2020 Or you could install the lifter bore bush kit in the Clevo. Involves machine work, but, should fix the problem for good. Wonder how much the TMeyer blocks are going for.. They apparently solved all of this with a new casting. 1 CHESTNUTXE reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerg 10,871 Posted August 24, 2020 Forgot to add... Pissy oil capacity means hotter oil, which thins out and adds even more to the oil pressure problem. Sent from my CPH1920 using Tapatalk 1 CHESTNUTXE reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites