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OLM8

T5 to Toploader Bell

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I thought the sigma one was like a single rail 5 speed

You know with reverse up and over on the left ?

This car has reverse under 5th down on the right.

That’s a T5 , no?


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11 minutes ago, OLM8 said:

I thought the sigma one was like a single rail 5 speed

You know with reverse up and over on the left ?

This car has reverse under 5th down on the right.

That’s a T5 , no?


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T5 Reverse under 5th, correct . its the good one

sigma type, is Reverse next to 1st. i've had one, it didn't die with My driving back in the day on a 250.. can't be that bad(didn't have the car for that long though)
 

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The vehicle the box is coming from is a 1990 XF Ford Nissan Ute , carby crossflow 4.1.

It’s going into a XY wagon ,
bog stock Log6,

I figured it should be ok?

I don’t drive it like a WRX
or Ken Block.


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I have that exact box behind a pretty torquey 302, haven't popped it yet

I thought the sigma one was like a single rail 5 speed

You know with reverse up and over on the left ?

This car has reverse under 5th down on the right.

That’s a T5 , no?


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4.1 never came with the pretend 5 speed. Yours will be a T5 100%. I have read that Falcons only ever got World Class T5s, never non-WC. The way to tell if it's WC or non-WC is if the front layshaft bearing plug is either an inverted Welch plug (slightly domed), or a machined plug with a dimple in the middle (actually a blanked tapered bearing cup). I am pretty sure that you'll have a WC box. I wouldn't put a non-WC box behind anything bigger than a 4 cylinder

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4.1 never came with the pretend 5 speed. Yours will be a T5 100%. I have read that Falcons only ever got World Class T5s, never non-WC. The way to tell if it's WC or non-WC is if the front layshaft bearing plug is either an inverted Welch plug (slightly domed), or a machined plug with a dimple in the middle (actually a blanked tapered bearing cup). I am pretty sure that you'll have a WC box. I wouldn't put a non-WC box behind anything bigger than a 4 cylinder

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Thanks!

Good info

I’m getting more info from the seller when it’s removed from the ute, next week.

Do you have to take the bell off to see that lay shaft plug area?

Geez I hope it’s the WC Box!


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Thanks!

Good info

I’m getting more info from the seller when it’s removed from the ute, next week.

Do you have to take the bell off to see that lay shaft plug area?

Geez I hope it’s the WC Box!


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Yep seeing the layshaft end plug will need removal of bell housing. You could possibly go off the numbers on the casing but I'm not sure if the casings differ between them.

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Mine came out of an EA and it is definitely WC. XFs have exactly the same ratios so I just assumed that they were the same box.

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50 minutes ago, gerg said:

Mine came out of an EA and it is definitely WC. XFs have exactly the same ratios so I just assumed that they were the same box.

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would need @SPArKy_Dave to date code it.  supposedly the WC has syncro on reverse?  

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5 minutes ago, gerg said:

If they have syncro on reverse, mine's fucked. Crunchy like a fresh bowl of coco pops

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from what i know, and remember, the WC ones (or at least EB series 2 onwards have it)

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Here’s a story I wasn’t going to share, but it’s Friday night so what the hell..

I had a T5 which I brought new from a certain well known Tremec Gearbox supplier in Warwick QLD, it was for my 32 Ford Roadster. The new box cost me thousands $$$$$

To be honest, it was one of the worst boxes I’ve ever owned.

Everyone raves about them?
Phk me, what a piece of junk.

Went through about 4 of his crap internal hydraulic slave cylinders, that no matter what , just kept on leaking. So gearbox in out x5 to fit all them. The only lasted a few months and started to leak. Yes they were set up correctly.

Oil leaks at the speedo drive which was oil from the gearbox leaking internally into the speedo drive unit. Replaced that unit didn’t fix it.new one kept leaking no matter what.

The box came with one of his “short shift” gear selector housing.

Nothing short about the throw of the stick that I could see, it was long stick throw like a old bedford bus.

Also you couldn’t slam the box through the gears when you were frying the tyres. You felt every tooth on every synchro.

And backed up on top of all that the worst ever customer service in history from the supplier.

So anyway....

this is only my second ever T5 I’ve owned, this one cost me almost nothing.

This one brought it out of a wrecked sh$t old XF ute that had been driven around the clock about 10 times , doing the Wagga mail run and taken more hits than Mike Tyson.

I drove the ute to test the box, it was smooth and good!!!!

So we’ll see how it goes, I’d suspect a whole lot better!

Anyway I thought I’d share my only T5 experience and tears
from a few years ago.

Haha

Anyway back to my beer

Cheers


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45 minutes ago, OLM8 said:

had a T5 which I brought new from a certain well known Tremec Gearbox supplier in Warwick QLD

if that bloke has a Wood in his name, then he's the one that FIXED BGDAV's issue on his T56 that DELLOW FUCKED becuase of a bad bell housing casting.. (suggest you don't use a dellow bell housing)

 

i think oil into the speedo housing is normal, leaking out of the cable is possible if it was a cable set up and not seating well. 

 

i had a CRS bell housing from Castlemaine Rod Shop for the T5 to 6cyl XE i had,  and also used a CRS bell housing for W58 supra box onto lexus V8 in XE also. (but this was supplied by Bullet Super Cars in Qld with their clutch and flywheel kit and checked for center/alignment as there were complaints of the odd one not perfect at the time)

 

T5s are pretty agricultural, even more so if the clutch isn't releasing enough, and even more again if changing gears at high revs. 

if i had My time over doing the lexus into falcon again, i'd use a T5 for less mods..(factory tailshaft, cross member, speedo, for starters, possibly clutch set up also.. AU one in this instance due to where the shifter would have come out due to engine position)

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I've never rated the shift quality of my T5 over a nice fresh single rail, I reckon the latter is a very underrated box.

 

If they'd developed and made them, I would take a 5-speed version of a SR over a T5 any day of the week. T5 gears have too much helical angle in my opinion, more like 30 degrees compared to SRs which are easily half that. This is why SRs are a bit more whiney. More helical cut causes more end thrust. This is the main reason why non-WC boxes are considered weak: they only have plain thrust bearings on the layshaft, not tapered like WC has.

 

Clutch diameter can affect shift baulkiness too. If there's a greater amount of clutch mass, the syncros have to work harder to speed up/slow down the whole lot to enable synchronisation.

 

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1 hour ago, gerg said:

If there's a greater amount of clutch mass, the syncros have to work harder to speed up/slow down the whole lot to enable synchronisation

never knew this, and it may explain why the diesel gemini 5 speeds to have a flogged out second gear synchro earlier than the petrol version

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never knew this, and it may explain why the diesel gemini 5 speeds to have a flogged out second gear synchro earlier than the petrol version

I'd say it's that plus the fact that you have to wring its neck in 1st gear and slam it into 2nd just to keep up with traffic. If you rev it right out in 1st then 2nd gear syncro has a really hard time slowing the clutch and geartrain down again. If the diesel box has a shorter 1st, then there's also a greater rpm difference and again the syncros need to work harder.

 

A better way of driving is to just get the vehicle moving at walking pace in 1st then upshift into 2nd. Also, you can be much easier on syncros if you feather the throttle, pop it into neutral, pause then push the clutch in. This is like double-clutching without pushing it in the first time. Truck driving teaches you this method, short of using no clutch at all (ie: Roadranger, etc)

 

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What a difference a day makes...

I’ve just this morning scored a XA or XB , 2.92 borg high way ratio diff & another SR 4 speed box, both items complete with tailshaft etc and outwardly at least all in very good condition.

It sure has me wondering if fitting the SR with my cortina rear housing and then the 2.92 diff is almost the same? or better?outcome as the T5.

Only difference being it’s saving me a whole lot of money!

For example I got quoted $650 plus freight, just for the CRS T5 bell housing.

Your thoughts?

219dec1373202af0066df4ecd7d3393f.jpg


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i'd estimate the 3.23 diff would be around 2600rpm at 100kmh. 
with a 2.92 and same box would get it down to 2350 ish

 

the overdrive on a T5 with the 3.23 would be around 2000rpm. 

i've had the 2.92 and 2.77 with T5 and it's closer to 1800.. 

the difference is, it didn't make any(or much at all) difference to fuel economy and the main noticable difference is NOISE at highway speeds. 

 

if you are going to use a single rail, be sure to replace the selector rail seal, 99.5% of the time these are flogged out and leaking oil. (i've bought a few cars that didn't leak a drop.. because they were EMPTY of oil ) remove extension housing to replace,  need to knock a roll pin out of the gearshift end of the shaft  to remove..

 

the other thing to note is the XB diff is wider, not HEAPS wider than an XR-XY diff, but if you have deep dish wheels now, you should measure the drum to drum width and check.. they do fit with stock wheels, not sure on wide ones.

also depends if you have a bench seat, if so.. the single rail with cortina housing will fit better with that, i'm sure you'd need to chop the seat up a bit for a T5 or even falcon single rail stick location. 

 

i reckon the ratios are perfect with a 2.92 diff and 4 speed . (that said, a T5 is much the same, with the addition of 5th you can pretty much only use at 100kmh with this ratio)

 

with the 3.23 diff, you row through the gears quicker, this is different if you've fitted a bigger cam that revs higher happily(most  stock ones run out of puff around 4000)  


lots to consider

is the single rail bell housing a hydraulic one also? they came in 3 different configurations so to speak (hydraulic, cable on the drivers side pre unleaded, and cable on the left due to space for the cat on the unleaded)  

 

if it was Me,  i'd keep all the bits regardless. can always swap and change later.

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for all that !

My current box - 3 speed borg column it is hydraulic on the passenger side.

So I could easily adapt a SR to that housing.and keep the current clutch set up.

I’m picking up all the bits late this afternoon so I can’t confirm the diff width at this stage.

The seller “thinks” it’s XA or Xb but him or I don’t know for sure

I will measure it up tonight.

FYI with the T5 , I would also need the S10 style centre shift rear housing to move the stick forward as I don’t want to cut the bench seat.

Hard to find one of those housings and the one made by that guy in Warwick QLD , he wants about $1580 wtf

So the T5 cost is going through the roof.

Getting quotes for the adapter bell and the centre shift rear housing plus the cost of the gear box , not to mention the cost of cut and shut the tail shaft , dead set would almost add up to what I paid for the whole friggin car.

So anyway even if I re ratio my existing diff with the 2.92 crown wheel and pinion might be a option.

So I guess in your experience you’re saying the
4speed SR with a 2.92 rear end is a really good combo ?

All I’m looking for is better for driving in modern traffic and hwy.

PS my engine is stock 250 log










The one that you can


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52 minutes ago, OLM8 said:

So I guess in your experience you’re saying the
4speed SR with a 2.92 rear end is a really good combo ?

 

yes, but wait there's more..

 

the single rail doesn't directly bolt to the 3 speed,(can't remember if it's only one bolt that doesn't or 3 of the 4?) you'll need the 4 speed (or T5 one) clutch plate, because the splines are different on the input shaft. 

 

yeah USA sourced S10 T5 shifter setup, i have only seen one done into a cortina and that was so long ago i'd never find or remember what the story was..

 

can't remember if the 3 speed tailshaft is same as the 4 speed @Thom, may know?  got a feeling the splines may be different not sure on the length.

with the single rail, you also need the extension housing from the cortina, and the rail, i think the shifter setup itself might be same(have seen someone mount it on a plate further forward though by cutting the selector rail and just moving the shifter part of a falcon one.. more fun with mods)

 

 

 

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The adaption of the single rail to 3 speed bell seems fairly straight forward. Centre hole enlargement and drill tap rh top bolt.

I already have a complete Cortina SR gearbox so I was thinking the one I got today would be great as spare box or parts.

I figured I would need a falcon or cortina clutch plate to suit the input splines of the SR4.

My existing pressure plate probably can stay.

The tailshaft I got today fits on the SR 4 speed so I figured I can
put that yoke on my xy tailshaft and adjust its length as needed.

Diff I could re ratio my housing with the crown wheel and pinion
from the 2.92 diff I picked up today. Yes it would appear it’s about 50mm wider.

Total cost not sure

Unlikely to be even close to the cost of the T5 conversion?

Today’s parts cost me $200
Plus a box of beer.

Probably outsource the tailshaft and diff re ratio and gear box freshen up with bearings & gaskets seals.


End result

Hopefully a better driving car for modern traffic and highways.

Here’s a pic from today’s parts haul
93d0eff4ec2bf4585a6af3c0c02c8fc2.jpg


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you could run a tape measure along the 3 speed from bell to tailshaft yoke, same for single rail.  if same length that will  be easy.
with the diff, you might be able to find an XR to XY auto diff, i would think they'd be 2.92.  already, or you can swap ratios.. usually costs a bit.. due to new bearings etc. $500 ish? @chestnut has had this done more than anyone lately

 

you might be able to take off front nose of the single rail and 3 speed and swap them if lucky or take the 4 speed one to be turned down (easier than bell housing possibly) drilling the hole should be simple enough

 

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I don't reckon you could swap inputs. The ratios internally are different, meaning the reduction gear on the input shaft will be different also. That's aside from the thing even fitting in the same hole in the first place. Hope I'm wrong though

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