Boingk

Boingk's XF Ute - Budget Street & Strip w/Nitrous

83 posts in this topic

Tried a video but the float sunk. Odd as it was perfect the first time, may be a bad seat.

 

On the upside, I (extremely quickly and poorly) painted the rocker cover and flushed out the PCV so it can be connected. I sorted the power steering pump, too, as it was at an odd angle and needed tweaking to hold a belt.

 

JhCzh0KtwqUqVcmH7GiPk045LNiO_eEZggZcDXey

 

The list for rego is getting shorter, after the carby I've got the radiator to go back in and heater hoses to sort out plus the shifter bush... and we're in business.

 

 - boingk

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i had a similar problem with the belt not lining up so i shimmed the 3 pump bolt holes with simple washers behind the bracket ,cnt of a job as all 3 must be done at the same time,ok if yur an octopus but fixed the problem.

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Bit of progress today, I got a Holley 600 cleaned, rejetted and fitted to the Aussiespeed manifold, plus got some basic tyres on the wheels so I can punt it through rego in the next week or two.
 
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Also my MSD unit turned up and I had a mess around with the software. I'm going to run 30' advance at the distributor so will have 10' on startup and a max of 30' in by 2500rpm. Rev limiter is set to 6000rpm with timing being retarded by 6' from 5900rpm so it isn't a hard cut. Does that sound about right for a basic map?
 
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 - boingk
 
 
 
 
Going back a bit I know but.....

That is a good start, but running a cam that big will want an almost flat curve. Sure have it cranking at about 10, but to give the most off-the-line response, you'll want it to ramp up pretty sharply from 0 to idle rpm.

I didn't read whether or not you're running a boost retard curve (req's MAP sensor) but I highly recommend you do this. I have found that this is the key to getting the most out of the 6AL-P box.

The MAP sensor needs to be nothing more than a GM unit from the wreckers. Mine cost me the grand total of 8 bucks. Make sure you take the plug and some of the loom with you too. Splice it in to the MSD loom (the MSD plug looks the same but has different tangs which don't fit the GM MAP) and then solder them up.

The reason why I say that the boost retard curve is so important (effectively vac advance on an atmo engine) is that you're leaving a lot of performance, efficiency and driveability on the table without it. At cruise, mine takes over 40 degrees advance and it likes it. That's on E10 as well. Under load, that would normally ping its tits off but having the boost retard pull about 12 degrees of timing out when I mash it makes it possible.

It also allows a very mellow, advanced idle without it being a slappy, cranky, overheating bitch of a thing. Having a smooth idle with minimal throttle opening makes it more responsive to mixture adjustments. It increases idle vac which makes the mixture atomise better. is needed for brakes, interior ventilation controls, PCV, etc.

So the flow-on effect of hooking up a MAP is much more than just making it drive nicely.

The MSD doesn't make more horsepower, it allows a more radical engine to be tamer when driving on the street.

One more thing, make sure your rotor is indexed to your cap terminals. This requires that you sacrifice a dizzy cap by drilling a large hole next to a terminal and observe the distance that the spark has to jump. Use a timing light to highlight the rotor position. If you see it jumping more than a few mm, you either need to alter the curve or extend the rotor tip to close the gap.

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just add to gergs advice,when i took mine to the dyno with msd hooked up,he said the boost retard is not needed because its not boosted,i need to look into this info more from gerg,also when i went to the wreckers to get the map sensor from a vt commo it was identical to the xf one ? and plug straight in.

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just add to gergs advice,when i took mine to the dyno with msd hooked up,he said the boost retard is not needed because its not boosted,i need to look into this info more from gerg,also when i went to the wreckers to get the map sensor from a vt commo it was identical to the xf one ? and plug straight in.
That dyno guy obviously doesn't know much about these. I wish operators would be honest about what they do and don't know, not just imply that all knowledge about tuning starts and stops with them.

GM MAP sensors come in 1, 2 and 3 bar calibrations. The rating is in absolute, not relative to atmosphere. 1-bar is 0 to atmospheric (14.7 PSI), 2-bar is 0 to 29.4, and 3-bar is 0 to 44.1.

Now, getting your head around that, each of these sensors has a linear 0-5V output, meaning that each time you go up in bar rating, the resolution goes down. So if you're just after an atmo rating, any Commodore or Euro model should have one. I took a Barina one. If you're after a boost-sensing one, I think a supercharged V6 would be sporting one of them.

As for XFs having them, well I only owned an EST equipped one for a few weeks until I smashed it so never even looked. The EFI ones used a Motorcraft one, which had a frequency output, not voltage.

I don't know how you got the MSD to plug into a GM one, maybe they woke up to themselves and made it universal.



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8 hours ago, gerg said:

That is a good start, but running a cam that big will want an almost flat curve, you'll want it to ramp up pretty sharply from 0 to idle rpm.

 

Copy that. I'll get into it when I get around to connecting it up. Just got a laptop to tune the thing when its in the vehicle so that will be very helpful. It'll still have a curve something like 15deg initial to 30deg max advance as this has worked for me on many engines in the past.

 

8 hours ago, gerg said:

I didn't read whether or not you're running a boost retard curve (req's MAP sensor) but I highly recommend you do this. I have found that this is the key to getting the most out of the 6AL-P box.

 

Yep, planning on it. Can't run properly without vac advance, definitely need it on light load moderate rpm situations like your freeway example.

 

8 hours ago, gerg said:

It also allows a very mellow, advanced idle without it being a slappy, cranky, overheating bitch of a thing.

 

Bingo! I don't understand why so many performance workshops send engines onto the street with essentially locked timing - you want a curve. I reprogrammed by Dad's stroked Clevo with ICE ignition - it was running about 28 deg at idle and 30 at max advance. WTF? Dropped it to 15 idle and 30 max, and it now doesn't overheat, starts better and has more power down low as well. Timing is everything.

 

5 hours ago, gerg said:

GM MAP sensors come in 1, 2 and 3 bar calibrations. The rating is in absolute, not relative to atmosphere. 1-bar is 0 to atmospheric (14.7 PSI), 2-bar is 0 to 29.4, and 3-bar is 0 to 44.1.

I don't know how you got the MSD to plug into a GM one, maybe they woke up to themselves and made it universal.

 

Excellent info, thanks mate. The more resolution the better. For the fittings, I believe one of the connectors has a small tang stopping interface with the other. Remove this tang with a chisel, knife or dremel and you're good to go.

 

Cheers - boingk

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Awesome thread mate can’t wait to see how you progress with this!

I’m running the exact same box and coil as you (if your coil is also black then we’re exactly the same to the colour). Greg helped me out with the MAP sensor and it works great; sometimes it gets a little tricky cause it alters the timing by rpm and manifold vacuum simultaneously at all times - but once it’s set up it works a treat.


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More progress. I found the carby was overflowing due to the float binding, and the binding was caused by a misfire at idle... and the misfire was due to bad spark plugs. Done!

 

With that taken care of I chucked the radiator back in and stiched the heater hoses back together - a good trick I found was to rob the stock manifold of the t-piece so you can still connect hoses up, and then use some of the old EGR piping to connect everything back together with excess hose and some clamps.

 

After all that, I found the water pump is worn and leaking, spraying out a fine mist from the pulley due to a slow leak. Bugger. Well, at least everything looks okay.

 

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Excellent info, thanks mate. The more resolution the better. For the fittings, I believe one of the connectors has a small tang stopping interface with the other. Remove this tang with a chisel, knife or dremel and you're good to go.

 

Cheers - boingk

 

Sounds like you're onto it already. Never played with ICE but I assume that they're not that different.

 

Yeah 15 initial 30 total sounds like a good rough tune, you'll probably need a good 10 hours on the road with your laptop just messing about getting the last 10% of it right. You may even find that a double-hump curve works (that's what mine looks like) as you may need to dip it down a bit at maximum torque then back up again to max rpm.

 

The soft-limit effect works well as I did the exact same thing. The engine just hits a wall and pops and farts a bit but doesn't kick or buck or go mang-mang-mang like a limiter-basher commo p-plater special.

 

As for the boost curve, it's a simpler one to set up. I have mine at max from idle/cruise up to about 8 PSI, then ramping down sharply from there to about 11 PSI with 10 degrees taken out, then level to 14.7 (WOT)

 

I also have an over-run retard to try and get some exhaust rumble on decel but it's purely for wank factor. Micheal can vouch for this

 

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I see your carby is a vac secondary. Do you feel them actually open?

You're lucky that 6 cyl water pumps are pretty easy to do. Clevo ones are a bitch... 6000 fucking bolts holding them on and they're heavy as fuck too. I think I'll go alloy and save 50 kg lol

Should take a video of her running so we can hear the cam, etc.



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Wank factor? Nothing wrong with that, I'll do the same thing most likely haha. And yeah go alloy for a Clevo, those old cast iron units are ridiculously heavy. I had a great combo with mine - Elgin E-907-P camshaft (220@50 / 500 lift), 302C heads, Weiand X-Celerator intake w/Holley 600, MSD Street Fire HEI dizzy. Moved the old Effy along well!

 

Yep, vac-secondary. I have used them a lot in the past and found really the only limiting factor is the secondary metering plate, but for most combos it's not too much of an issue. The secondaries open fine, but need to be resprung to suit the engine.

 

Video will come soon but no cam at the moment, I'm focusing on getting her through rego before I play around too much with that.

 

After all that, I've got an Innovate LM-2 wideband to put in as well. Its on a car I've got in storage so will need to go rob it at some point. Great unit, highly recommended!

 

DBKit_ALL.jpg

 

 - boingk

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Oh sounds like you're onto the carby thing too. Good to hear. Carby tuning skills are a dying art these days.

Secondary metering plates are fine, they can be tweaked as well just like jetting a meter block, all you need is a set of jet drills. They rarely need touching though.

Although I must say these old-style Holleys are a nightmare to tune when compared to the new Quickfuels and Proforms, etc with replaceable everything. Air bleeds and emulsion jets make a huge difference compared to the old fixed ones.

At least you have adjustable floats.

I'd advise to get a quick-change spring cover. Getting the floppy diaphragm to sit in place while trying to put the screws in and hold the cover in place all at once just plain sucks. Then putting the c-clip back on the diaphragm rod without losing it is a mission. I don't miss that shit. I went to a Street Demon.

Looks like you have everything else ready for the cam, so should go like a shot dog.

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. I had a great combo with mine - Elgin E-907-P camshaft (220@50 / 500 lift), 302C heads, Weiand X-Celerator intake w/Holley 600, MSD Street Fire HEI dizzy. Moved the old Effy along well!


Sure it did... That sounds like a nice cam for a 351. The X-Celerator was a popular one on the Clevo. Back in the 90s, it was the best around I believe, only bettered by the Air Gap in recent years. Anything that moves a big hunk of metal like an Effie along well is delivering the goods.

I looked at Elgin but nothing really suited what I was after. As mine's a 302, I was after around a 210 at 50 and a 110 lobe sep, to give some mid-range punch. Also below 0.5" lift due to stock rockers. Ended up with a Crow 21602 which goes 208/208@50, 110 LSA, 484 lift. Had this one before so I know its character, except this time I installed it +4.

Anyway, crossys need a very different approach with cams. Long-stroke motors like duration, so you may well need to go with something around 225@50 and 112 LSA.

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1 minute ago, gerg said:

Anyway, crossys need a very different approach with cams. Long-stroke motors like duration, so you may well need to go with something around 225@50 and 112 LSA.

 

 

I've gone with a Crow 14872 solid - 231@50 and 554 lift. Lobe sep is 108 but as I'm looking to go drag racing with nitrous that should suit just fine.

 

16 minutes ago, gerg said:

Oh sounds like you're onto the carby thing too. Good to hear. Carby tuning skills are a dying art these days.

I'd advise to get a quick-change spring cover. Getting the floppy diaphragm to sit in place while trying to put the screws in and hold the cover in place all at once just plain sucks. Then putting the c-clip back on the diaphragm rod without losing it is a mission. I don't miss that shit. I went to a Street Demon.
 

 

Looks like most stuff I'm into is a dying art. I'm a stick welding, carb tuning, tyre fitting machine!

 

I've got a quick-change coming. The stock units are my biggest hate with these things, they are an absolute pain in the rear. I'd love a new Brawler 600 but can't justify the budget. The carb I've got is because it was the right price. $100 from a mate, can't argue with that. He wanted it gone, went with a new one to save hassle. All the better for me!

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You're lucky that 6 cyl water pumps are pretty easy to do. Clevo ones are a bitch... 6000 fucking bolts holding them on and they're heavy as fuck too. I think I'll go alloy and save 50 kg lol

.



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They are a bit expensive but edelbrock do a really nice alloy waterpump for clevos, they have a really nice impeller too (far better than the gmb ones)
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Looks like most stuff I'm into is a dying art. I'm a stick welding, carb tuning, tyre fitting machine!
 
I've got a quick-change coming. The stock units are my biggest hate with these things, they are an absolute pain in the rear. I'd love a new Brawler 600 but can't justify the budget. The carb I've got is because it was the right price. $100 from a mate, can't argue with that. He wanted it gone, went with a new one to save hassle. All the better for me!


Best to keep up those skills, always handy for the Zombie Apocalypse

Those carbies are the best... My old 600 vac was an $80 eBay flog, and when a new one is over $500, they certainly aren't 5 times the carby. I learnt my chops on this old dunga..... installed annular boosters on the primaries, manual choke, played with jets, springs, bleeds, squirters, now I definitely know enough to get myself into trouble



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If you havnt got it already id suggest a Sparton o2 sensor from 14.7. The Innovate is only the best of the cheapest units comparred to AEM and such at the time but there electrics are quite shit and fail with varried volts or just time.

 

I just fitted a Sparton as the Mtx2 would shit its self every single drive. Its cheaper and better built and used by MS users the world over instead of the innovate nowdays. It reads spot on with zero issues.

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As for metering plate quickfuel make a conversion, billet metering plate that takes holley jets & comes with a notched nitrophyl float,

Reminds me, I need to get a float for my 465, standard brass float hits the jets. I got the 34-3QFT which doesn't come with the float :~

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/QUICKFUEL-CONVERSION-PLATE-FOR-JETS-Q34-2/361672946658?epid=26020021654&hash=item54356333e2:g:R20AAOSw1CBbrddj:rk:15:pf:0

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On 12/01/2019 at 6:20 AM, slydog said:

If you havnt got it already id suggest a Sparton o2 sensor from 14.7. The Innovate is only the best of the cheapest units

 

Fair enough. The unit I have has only been used for a few thousand kay so should still be fine for setup on the ute. I'll definitely look at the Spartans if I have any issues.

 

On 12/01/2019 at 9:23 PM, FORD_MAN said:

As for metering plate quickfuel make a conversion, billet metering plate that takes holley jets & comes with a notched nitrophyl float

 

Excellent, that looks like just what I'm after.

 

No progress at the moment, going to get some steel plate so I can fab up a clutch fan removal tool.

 

Cheers - boingk

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clutch fan removal can be easy with a chisel(or big screwdriver etc) it's left hand thread. aka lefty tighty, righty loosey..

put the chisel on to the edge of one of the flats on the fan nut.. strike with hammer and it will undo 98% of the time

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32mm open end spanner is all you need for the clutch fan. Just remove two opposite bolts from the water pump pulley to allow the jaws of the spanner to slide down the nut. A tap with a hammer usually gets them. If it's real tight a pair of stilsons on the water pump pulley and you'll crack it straight away. 

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Thanks for the advice gents. I got it with a 32mm and a pair of cheap spanners tacked together to use as leverage on the hub bolts. Worked a treat, and now I've got a tool for next time.

 

sh354HRog8dijmDS6kK3_MsQWLGRkUJovbpMIk_R

 

4 hours ago, Lord_fahrquhar said:

Fuck i love this thread go the old school shit

 

Cheers mate, there's no school like the old school!

 

 - boingk

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