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Boingk

Boingk's 1/4 Mile Crossflow Build

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Hey all, just the usual here, asking for advice on a build. I'm not new to engines (Hemi 245's, 318's, Ecotecs, numerous bike engines) but am new to crossflows and need some advice.

 

I'm looking to build something to take to the 1/4 and also run on the street. It'll likely have direct-port nitrous at the strip but other than that nothing too crazy. Combination so far is as follows:

 

C2 head decked, ported and lapped

8cc pistons (balanced) to boost compression into the high 9's / low 10's

Rods de-flashed and balanced

Crank linished and balanced

120lb (closed) valve springs

standard rockers/locks/retainers

hardened CroMoly .110" thickness pushrods

Camshaft somewhere in the neighbourhood of 230'@.050" and .520-.550" lift

 

Ignition is up in the air, as is intake. I've got a ported Torker 2bbl and modded Holley 500cfm 2bbl I could use, but also am eyeing off the Aussiespeed 4bbl units to match with a Holley 600 / Street Avenger 670. This will come down to availability as the Barra craze is in full swing.

 

The topend is also new to me, but essentially the same as my Clevos - the rockers would be lovely to swap out to at least a roller tipped type but will standard cope with the specs above and no more than 6500rpm?

 

Any advice much appreciated, cheers.

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2 hours ago, hendrixhc said:

Have a read of Slydogs ute thread he has played around quite succesfully with a crossy on the street and strip.

 

Thanks mate, well into it but not doing anything near that hectic. Pretty sure he's campaigned an XF ute in Drag Challenge for a few years now, too.

 

I'm running an XF ute as well, nothing fancy at all and pretty rough at the moment. Cutting and patching panels type of rough. Looking to eventually run mid 12's, nothing fancy. Want to stay hydraulic flat-tappet for the camshaft to make thing easy, but what I'm looking at will be into the territory of a baby mechanical flat-tappet by most grinders catalogues.

 

 - boingk

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You can forget about over .500" lift on standard rocker gear.  It's just not going to happen. Well not with any reliability. If you plan on taking it to the strip and giving it a hard time then just go straight to solid flat tappet. The 'run in risks' are the same with hydraulic flat tappet as solid flat tappet and the solid will make more power all day everyday. Roller rockers can be bought cheaply second hand so I'm not sure why you'd bother trying to make the stock stuff work way past its design purpose. 

 

230@50 is a good starting point on camshaft tho. Your cylinder head will need decent flow but there are various porting and build threads on here to guide you in that direction. 

 

The aussiespeed 4 barrel unit is really the only choice for the power level your aiming for (based on the times you want to run). Forget the street avenger and go straight to a 650dp. 

 

Ignition control is important on these engines so I'd be going nothing less than a 6al2 programmable and a hvc or hvc2 coil. Both are rated for street use and put out decent spark. 

 

A decent exhaust to get the bad stuff out and you should be well on your way. You will need to look at keeping weight down as much as you can but your goal should be achievable. 

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Thanks mate, much appreciated. I'll look more toward that direction then, if the valve gear won't hold I won't try and make it. I'm more used to Chrysler V8's and their great shaft-mount system and I keep forgetting how different stud type rockers are in terms of reliability at speed and load.

 

Weight-wise, the ute is going to be pretty standard. I'll probably try and pull a few tricks (single sheet bonnet and tailgate, light tonneau cover for aero) but otherwise will be fairly limited as I want it to be usable as an everyday ride.

 

Decent exhaust isn't an issue, big single 3" dumped out the back. Headers will be a struggle as off-the-shelf items don't have the primary size I'm after, at least not the one's I've seen so far.

 

Ignition I'm leaning towards a 6AL style box or an ICE ignition module. I've had decent experiences with them so will see what I can get within my budget.

 

Narrowing down the options for the final Ute body at the moment, I'll start a thread once I've got it.

 

 - boingk

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Cool. Yeah different game with these to the good old mopar stuff. 

 

1"5/8 is about the biggest primary tubes you'll get from the usual places. Mark at Aussiespeed does a big bore 1"3/4 primary set where you build your own secondaries. I can highly recommend them as I've seen good gains.  In the new year I'll be doing some testing on various headers on the Mad Scientist x flow to show the differences. 

 

Stick to the 6al2 Programmable.  Trust me you won't regret it.  I've been beating on about how good they are for years on here and on my business Facebook page. Gerg will testify as to how much I beat on about them, but he has one and loves it. Especially important if it's going to be your everyday ride. With its load based (via map) timing graph you can get very good manners. 

 

Look forward to the build thread. 

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11 hours ago, ando76 said:

1"5/8 is about the biggest primary tubes you'll get from the usual places. Mark at Aussiespeed does a big bore 1"3/4 primary set where you build your own secondaries. <SNIP> Stick to the 6al2 Programmable.  Trust me you won't regret it.  Look forward to the build thread. 

 

Thanks mate, solid lead there. 1.75" would be nice, the things I have at the moment look very spindly (press bent 1.5"?) and were bought for a mild hop-up with another vehicle.

 

7 hours ago, CHESTNUTXE said:

can i ask where you are getting the 8cc pistons from ?

 

ACL do pistons according to their website:

http://www.aclperformance.com.au/EU/6MKRY9412.htm

 

With the dished set at .020 over, a 50cc chamber, .030" deck height and .040" head gasket at 3.7" bore diameter it all comes to about a 10.8:1 compression ratio by my calculations. That should be plenty for what I want to achieve and still use pump fuel.

 

I also stumbled on some bolt-in style roller rockers which look interesting, they use a 5/16 stud that goes into the head which then enlarges to a 7/16 stud for the rockers themselves. Anyone have any experience with this type of setup? I know its not a proper full 7/16 stud but then again I'm not running a top-spec full-tilt camshaft either.

 

 - boingk

 

 

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aaThat  piston in the picture looks like a very short piston and probly suits the 3.3 rod maybe ? in 020 all i have been able to find is a kieth black flat top in 3.701 bore size and comp height of 1.554 its actualy a 4 cyl piston but can possibly suit the crossy 4.1 rod,pin size is spot on,im currenly using the precsison 020 piston with 20.5cc and 9.7 .1 ratio.

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On 12/10/2018 at 2:37 AM, ando76 said:

 If you plan on taking it to the strip and giving it a hard time then just go straight to solid flat tappet.

 

Fair call. With adjustable rockers solid lifters become just a quick purchase away...

 

Looking at two choices here from Camtech:

CT142-609: i231/e235@.050" / i496/e500 lift / 2200~6200rpm / min 9.5:1 compression

CT142-608: i241/e243@.050" / i522/e522 lift / 2500~6500rpm / min 10:1 compression

 

The top choice looks like it'd be great for everyday use which is 95% of what I'll be doing, and the bottom one would be a hoot for a more dedicated machine. They are the smallest in the range but that's fine by me as, like I said, this will mainly be a street-driven, full-rego type car with only occasional strip time.

 

Anyone have experiences with those?

 

And yeah looks like ACL is down and out. Bugger.

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Two things so far...not enough cam and not enough compression. Last flat tappet I ran had 650 lift and 270 @ 50.

 

Although I had nothing but good results from Mal @ Camtech I suggest ringing the cam grinders to spec your cam shaft.

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http://www.ozfalcon.com.au/index.php?/topic/7153-slow250xcs-slow-250-xc/&page=4

Have links to stepped studs and roller rockers on that page. Have been happy with them so far but haven't done fek all miles to test them properly.
Had to file fit the guide plates a tad but lots of people would run them as is. I just like my shit right.


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i had the machine shop cut a set of windsor guide plates inhalf then file them down to suit,you may also need to do a bit of cleaning up of the alloy around the pushrod holes.

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One has to wonder why you'd even consider using 7/16 stud mount roller rockers for such little lift. The reality is that Yella Terra rate their 5/16 bolt ons to 600lbs of open pressure!!  No guide plates required, no additional machining costs. I've run 5/16 bolt in the real world for many years and never once pulled a rocker thread. That's in consistent high rpm engines that compete in endurance Motorsport and make decent snot.  254@.050 .584" lift Cams.  Secret is good spring control and correct spring pressures. 

 

So without all the pissing competitions about lift, duration, compression and all that, let's look at this with real data and science.  

 

Your stated goal is to run mid 12's (with spray) in a daily driven xf ute, so lets look at the data and facts.  

 

* An xf ute weighs 1350kgs - 2976 lbs, which incidentaly is 120kgs heavier than a crossflow equipped TE cortina in street trim.

* to run a 12.5 second pass in a 2976lb vehicle -  you'd need 260 moroso hp (ref. Moroso speed calculator). 

* a 230@.050 camshaft with a good cylinder head (210+ Cfm) and comp around 11:1 will make 1 hp/cube at the tyres in a manual,    .78/ cube in an auto with a fair stall.  I built a Buick v6 with a 215@.050 that went 214rwhp thru a stalled auto. Good head and 10.5:1 comp. 

* a 100 shot of nitrous is a real world 100rwhp gain.  Yes, it's not Street legal having any nitrous component hooked up, but in a ute you could easily hide the bottle lines etc. 

 

Now thats all assuming decent car set up and hook, but your own goal states to 'eventually' run mid 12's.  So in essence a 230@ .050 with good head and comp and a shot of gas should be more than capable of running mid 12's, provided the set up is good and the car gets the power and torque to the ground. 

 

It all comes down to how much street you intend on doing and how much drag. Also how much your prepared to live with in relation to everyday driveability.  I have customers that street drive 254@.050 Cams and love them. Josh recently drove his corty from Glen Innis to Yamba and back for a rod run. 3 hours each way, good cruise manners etc etc that's with 3.7 gears.  Pat drives his from Port Douglas to Cairns regularly and loves it - his has 3.45 gears.  Ive got a crow hydraulic in the Mad Scientist xflow.  It's a 619 I had lying around 226-232@.050 on 110. It has a nice chop at idle and would I'd say is livable idle and manners. 10.8:1 comp.  next year we will find out what sort of snot it makes.  

 

I think your on the right track track but I would say, don't be scared of putting some compression in her.  With the ally head and a good chamber shape you'll have no detonation issues. Bit more static will help with dynamic when you get around the 230@.@50 and above range. 

 

Good igniton control (especially with nitrous), a proper dyno tune by a good operator, some attention to suspension and set up and should be well on your way.  Either way, have fun with it and enjoy it. 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 12/12/2018 at 8:44 AM, slydog said:

Two things so far...not enough cam and not enough compression. I suggest ringing the cam grinders to spec your cam shaft.

 

Thanks mate, duly noted. I'm starting to think a bit more that way but again I'm also not looking to run 10's or even 11's. Mid 12's would be plenty for me - enough to have a play at the track with some V8 gear and not look shamefully slow. Low 12's would be a bonus but I expect the engine won't be the only thing holding me back by that point.

 

On 13/12/2018 at 10:01 AM, Slow250XC said:

Have links to stepped studs and roller rockers on that page. Have been happy with them so far but haven't done fek all miles to test them properly.
Had to file fit the guide plates a tad but lots of people would run them as is. I just like my shit right.

 

Good reading, cheers for the link mate. Nice ride!

 

On 14/12/2018 at 9:03 AM, CHESTNUTXE said:

i share the same dream of running such numbers at next years all ford day,to run a 12 you are going to need a lot of work and money.

 

Nah not much. Cheap ute, an engine to build while I drive it and sort the gremlins, and a whole lot of elbow grease by yours truely. I'm not a mechanic by trade but have tackled most jobs so far by myself. This is why I'm starting a year out - the magic triangle: Lotsa time / Lotsa money / Lotsa effort. Pick two and you may not need the other! 

 

Cost list so far:

 

$1000 - ute with reco 250 / 4spd / HD clutch / lotsa rims

$250 - donor XF - motor, radiator, spare trans / housing / flywheel etc

$240 - set of sunraysias in 15x7

$100 - new tonneau cover

$100 - basic service (coolant/filters/oil/plugs)

$50 - new tail lights

$50 - new hardline for fuel system

$100 - new fuel pump

$600 - Aussiespeed manifold

$600 - NX Mainline nitrous kit including plate, AN4 line, etc

------------

$3090 total so far

 

Budget about a grand for the camshaft, rockers and pushrods, another 200 in machining the head, 700 in M/T ET Street's, 150 for new diff gears and all I've got left is the carby... which I probably already have. Call it about another 1200 and I'm set. So whats that 4290 bucks? Not nothing but certainly far from big bucks, only thing missing is a decent ignition. If you have a place to work, some basic tools and a phone with the 'net you can get any job done.

 

 - boingk

 

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2 hours ago, Enoch Bailey said:

 

So whats that 4290 bucks? Not nothing but certainly far from big bucks, only thing missing is a decent ignition. If you have a place to work, some basic tools and a phone with the 'net you can get any job done.

 

 - boingk

 

 

i'd love it if you'd do a running total for people who want to do similar, I know @CHESTNUTXE build on his ute blew out with changes, upgrades, tuning etc. and i'd expect similar to get things sorted.

slydog's build had more than a few twists and turns, but he's done an awful lot on it himself(i'd dare say all of it...) 

 

 

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i'd love it if you'd do a running total for people who want to do similar, I know [mention=7196]CHESTNUTXE[/mention] build on his ute blew out with changes, upgrades, tuning etc. and i'd expect similar to get things sorted.
slydog's build had more than a few twists and turns, but he's done an awful lot on it himself(i'd dare say all of it...) 
 
 
I already blew about 10k on the driveline $2500 just on the head and soon going back to the drawing board to add flat tops and 4.11s and a c4 with stall then i might get close to 14 sec

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It doesn't have to be expensive.  You just have to have a good plan and formula and stick to it.  Doing things 3 or 4 times over does make it expensive. 

 

Luke's Cortina runs 7.1 over the 1/8 (after a tune) & 11.3 over the 1/4 (untuned) with 3.45gears. Yes it's light but it's a simple package that just works. I've detailed that package several times on here and his car is proof. Flat tappet, single four barrel with a dizzy. It hasn't been back to the 1/4 since being tuned because Luke races pro stock bike and that's his current focus. It's improved 2 tenths over the 1/8 so the next 1/4 pass with tune and gears should be interesting. 

 

The 11.3 is showing 260 Moroso hp.  Exactly what is needed to run that mid 12 in the xf when everything else is right. Luke's head was done before we developed the latest ports so it would be just over the 210cfm mark. 

 

Spend your our money wisely and you will achieve your goal. 

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