WINDSOR SMALLBLOCK TALK

[CHESTNUTXE 7,299]

the yanks go on about the boss 302 so hard,but i know this subject has been talked about many times but a 302 cleveland built with all the goodies ,mech cam ,4vs ect would be just as exciting as i reckon,maybe not rev as high but not far off.

[bear351c 10,270]

Saw the same video. Testing at 9,500 RPM...!    Love to have been at that dyno session. 

[CHESTNUTXE 7,299]

those guys would have loved driving one of them at  bathurst.

[gerg 10,871]

the yanks go on about the boss 302 so hard,but i know this subject has been talked about many times but a 302 cleveland built with all the goodies ,mech cam ,4vs ect would be just as exciting as i reckon,maybe not rev as high but not far off.

I reckon a stock, balanced bottom end on a 302C would deal with at least 7500 rpm no problem, probably better than a 302W due to the taller deck and longer rods, bigger 3/8" rod bolts (vs 5/16”), bigger big end and main journals for crank stiffness. Only drawback I can see is more rotating and reciprocating weight.

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[CHESTNUTXE 7,299]

I reckon a stock, balanced bottom end on a 302C would deal with at least 7500 rpm no problem, probably better than a 302W due to the taller deck and longer rods, bigger 3/8" rod bolts (vs 5/16”), bigger big end and main journals for crank stiffness. Only drawback I can see is more rotating and reciprocating weight.

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Yep and have more torque

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[CHESTNUTXE 7,299]

boss 1970 302 was 10.5.1 ,so getting a 302c up to that comp ya probly gunna need a dome piston maybe ,but luckily plenty are available for the std clevo rod size.

[bear351c 10,270]

6 hours ago, gerg said:

I reckon a stock, balanced bottom end on a 302C would deal with at least 7500 rpm no problem, probably better than a 302W due to the taller deck and longer rods, bigger 3/8" rod bolts (vs 5/16”), bigger big end and main journals for crank stiffness. Only drawback I can see is more rotating and reciprocating weight.
 

 

Hence slower to rev...... Windsor always rev more freely, than Clevos for this reason.  No reason why (with todays technology) you cant make a Clevo run to 9,000. 

H beam rods, tungsten valves, billet cranks, all available. Now, what to do about the oiling system.. 

[Mr Polson 10,214]

 
Hence slower to rev...... Windsor always rev more freely, than Clevos for this reason.  No reason why (with todays technology) you cant make a Clevo run to 9,000. 
H beam rods, tungsten valves, billet cranks, all available. Now, what to do about the oiling system.. 

Windsors rev, Clevos breathe

That's the way my old man has always put it, and why the Clevo heads on a Windsor was the popular choice back before alloy heads became as available as they are now

[gerg 10,871]

Windsors rev, Clevos breathe

That's the way my old man has always put it, and why the Clevo heads on a Windsor was the popular choice back before alloy heads became as available as they are now

I think going for a modern "boss", either with stock clevo iron or alloys is not necessary now, unless you really want the boss look. There are dozens of aftermarket Windsor heads that are equal to or better than any Clevo style head, which make for a tighter and lighter package... and have a huge selection of manifolds to suit.

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[CHESTNUTXE 7,299]

could be another reason the 400 clevo is hard to find as many 351w blocks got the 4 inch crank and mix matched rods and pistons to form the early stroker motors.

[gerg 10,871]

could be another reason the 400 clevo is hard to find as many 351w blocks got the 4 inch crank and mix matched rods and pistons to form the early stroker motors.

I think people just didn't rate the 400 with any performance value, with it being a smog motor almost its whole life, it would have just been scrapped along with whatever wreck it was in at the junk yard. Only now, with the good clevo alloy heads coming in, have they been able to wake them up and make the power they always should have done.

 

There was a decent amount made in the 11 or so years they were offered, much more than that of clevos, which were only made for 4 years in the States.

 

 

 

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[CHESTNUTXE 7,299]

millions of 400 s were made as they went in everything from cars to trucks,strange thing is the 351c was also offerd in the same range of vehical as also the 429 ,and 351w just tick the box of engine option ahhhh i will have a 72 LTD brougham with the 429 4 barrel option thanks.

[Mr Polson 10,214]

I think going for a modern "boss", either with stock clevo iron or alloys is not necessary now, unless you really want the boss look. There are dozens of aftermarket Windsor heads that are equal to or better than any Clevo style head, which make for a tighter and lighter package... and have a huge selection of manifolds to suit.

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Oh yeah absolutely not something you'd do now simply due to the advancements in aftermarket.

[bear351c 10,270]

......but Clevos sound better.  .

 

Not sure if you change the heads, dizzy, firing order on a Windsor, would they sound similar..???

[FORD_MAN 1,026]

I've been wanting to & thought of multiple hi rpm 302c for ages, hope to give it a go one day, my current 302 has revved to 6800 & 7200 buy the recall on my tacho. 

From likes of CNC ported 2V's 11:1 comp, F246+ (i can remember worked out to 445hp 410ft/lb), OR 12:1 351c 6" chev rod dome pistons, 6.25" H beam, Crane SR 268/278 758/758, AFD 2V or CHI 185 or 208 3V, also thought about offset grinding crank same as 377c for 3.2" stroke or 326ci(4.030")

[gerg 10,871]

I've been wanting to & thought of multiple hi rpm 302c for ages, hope to give it a go one day, my current 302 has revved to 6800 & 7200 buy the recall on my tacho. 
From likes of CNC ported 2V's 11:1 comp, F246+ (i can remember worked out to 445hp 410ft/lb), OR 12:1 351c 6" chev rod dome pistons, 6.25" H beam, Crane SR 268/278 758/758, AFD 2V or CHI 185 or 208 3V, also thought about offset grinding crank same as 377c for 3.2" stroke or 326ci(4.030")

I too have thought of doing a sweet mini stroker 302, You could do it using 351W rods on an offset ground 302 crank.... Theoretically, but the amount that machine shops want for that kind of work makes it unviable.

I understand that the Cleveland was originally intended to be around that displacement, hence the "335 series" name that Ford officially gave it back in the day. I believe that it came from having a 3.35" stroke which on a 4" bore would have given 337 cubes (rounded off).

Many chev guys say that the 327 was the sweetest factory small block displacement, if not the most powerful. Sort of like the 186 vs 202.

Bonus useless info: There is conjecture that Clevos were designed to be a marine engine as well, with the integral timing cover eliminating many gaskets (and leak points) at the front of the engine.

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[gerg 10,871]

......but Clevos sound better.  .
 
Not sure if you change the heads, dizzy, firing order on a Windsor, would they sound similar..???

I've never worked out why clevos sound different, they use the same firing order as the "mustang" type Windsors and later 351s, also 4.6 and 5.4 modulars, maybe it's the way they breathe at high rpm, I dunno.

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[FORD_MAN 1,026]

I know local engine builder has ground 351 cranks for 377 strockers, so thats not much trouble,

isn't the 351w & Cleveland cnorods both 2.311" size? normally 377c/3.7" runs 2.100" SBC rods, other down side not sure who now makes a 377c piston,

[gerg 10,871]

I know local engine builder has ground 351 cranks for 377 strockers, so thats not much trouble,
isn't the 351w & Cleveland cnorods both 2.311" size? normally 377c/3.7" runs 2.100" SBC rods, other down side not sure who now makes a 377c piston,

Actually@FORD_MAN I think you're right there. The difference is length. Clevos are something like 5.780 and Windsors are 5.955". 302Cs are 6.030.l

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[CHESTNUTXE 7,299]

wasnt the mexican block the smallblock that was cast with high nickel i read that somewhere ages ago.

[gerg 10,871]

wasnt the mexican block the smallblock that was cast with high nickel i read that somewhere ages ago.

I think that was a bit of a myth, in that getting a Mexican block in reality wasn't a negative or positive thing vs a US cast one, I can't remember where I read this, but they were cast differently (front facing up) also had distinctive lumps on the front of the block each side of the timing case boss that were apparently alternate mounting points for trucks, industrial, marine, etc.

They are beefier in the bottom end, being a few kg heavier in iron (assembled) with 289 style hi-po caps. Some argue that they used domestic Mexican iron so needed to be beefier to make up for the poor metallurgy, but that could be typical toxic patriotism too.

My take is that these would find their way into trucks and vans, so would be considered a heavy application. But otherwise from what I've read, Mexican blocks are nothing special.

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[CHESTNUTXE 7,299]

well that clears that up pedro

[gerg 10,871]

well that clears that up pedro

Eh... no problemo gringo

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[CHESTNUTXE 7,299]

Hey chex this out ,289 9000+rpm just what we were talking about with the smaller windsors about high revs and it seems 289 is very popular.

 

[BSC 24 1]

Hi all I’m a novice and seeking some advice. I have an XE S Pack and I am just about to convert the stock engine to a 302 W. I have a  C4 Trans and it’s a nice package but I was trying to get a rough idea of what the changeover would cost?