gerg

Spring saddle/perch bushes, Shelby drop

38 posts in this topic

G'day folks, need some tips on the best type of spring saddle available.

 

Whiteline and Nolathane sell greasable-bush saddles that look pretty good, but I'm wondering about real-world durability. Some Nolathane bushes used to chop out in no time. Are either of them worth paying double over stock rubber ones (ie from Kingswood Country)?

 

Anyone who's done the Shelby drop, did you have clearance issues with the threaded end of the top arm pivot hitting the rear inside of the shock tower? This looks to be mostly a problem if you go 1/8" back (for more caster) in addition to the standard 1" down with the mounting holes. Do I need to lop a couple of mm off the end of the pivot that sticks out or will it be OK?

 

Also, are these any better in urethane, or best left as rubber?

 

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i fitted a set of the greasable saddles the last XF i had, but didn't have it long after.. i would say i didn't notice any difference over rubber in the feel of the car

as for the shelby drop, it was a total pain in the ass with BGDAV's XE on aftermarket springs, it had king lows in it.. and after the shelby drop it was tucking rim undrivable.. then after getting a king standard spring it was sitting higher than a Low still. 

on standard(LONG springs) it might not lose much height at all? (reading about it at the time i think half an inch was mentioned?) 

(BGDAV went to coil overs to upgrade the issue away... cheaper/easier than trial and error with springs?) 

if/when i had another ford i'd leave it stock,  it works... depending on use

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Urethane UCA bushes recommended. Will help car maintain suspension geometry and removes issues with preload in the rubber bush type. 

Spring saddels can't say, I've replaced with rubber and never had an issue. 

Yes, UCA Drop will cause the pivot to foul on the tower. I used a heavy ball pein hammer to massage the tower for extra room, and ground the pivot a little.

When UCA drop is done upper ball joint gets dangerously close to binding. And the UCA will foul on the tower at the pivot at max travel. 

I've done a thread on this:

Also, if you try to slam it you will eventually destroy your bumpstops as when using the drop the UCA does not hit the bump stop square. I made my own bump stops to fix this, which gave me more clearance for wider tires but you could also mod the upper arm if tires don't foul. 

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i fitted a set of the greasable saddles the last XF i had, but didn't have it long after.. i would say i didn't notice any difference over rubber in the feel of the car
as for the shelby drop, it was a total pain in the ass with BGDAV's XE on aftermarket springs, it had king lows in it.. and after the shelby drop it was tucking rim undrivable.. then after getting a king standard spring it was sitting higher than a Low still. 

on standard(LONG springs) it might not lose much height at all? (reading about it at the time i think half an inch was mentioned?) 
(BGDAV went to coil overs to upgrade the issue away... cheaper/easier than trial and error with springs?) 
if/when i had another ford i'd leave it stock,  it works... depending on use
OK cheers good feedback. My saddle bushes are shagged so they need doing regardless. So you reckon poly bushes aren't worth it?

As I'm possibly going to 17 x 8 rims, tuck is not good. However my springs would be considered standard height V8 (were sky-high with the 6). I'm expecting like you said about 1/2" drop but that's incidental. So clearance wasn't the issue, only the geometry?

The whole reason that I want the mod is to stop the usual pos camber under load, the side-benefit is that you don't need so much camber initially dialled in to compensate, so you then don't scrub out tyres so much. I've flipped the lowest leaf on the rear in anticipation for the modest drop up front.

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Urethane UCA bushes recommended. Will help car maintain suspension geometry and removes issues with preload in the rubber bush type. 
Spring saddels can't say, I've replaced with rubber and never had an issue. 
Yes, UCA Drop will cause the pivot to foul on the tower. I used a heavy ball pein hammer to massage the tower for extra room, and ground the pivot a little.
When UCA drop is done upper ball joint gets dangerously close to binding. And the UCA will foul on the tower at the pivot at max travel. 
I've done a thread on this:
Also, if you try to slam it you will eventually destroy your bumpstops as when using the drop the UCA does not hit the bump stop square. I made my own bump stops to fix this, which gave me more clearance for wider tires but you could also mod the upper arm if tires don't foul. 
I knew there was a thread somewhere here, just didn't go back far enough to find it. Cheers for that!

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My tyres wore evenly on My cars when Pedders aligned them.(for 20yrs) as long as nothing was worn(ball joints usually and an idler arm at least every 12months)(that was for 40,000kms a year ish 95% highway use naturally)

i'd use poly bushes if you have them, but i'd keep an eye on them.. the castor ones chopped out quick on My car but made a difference to handling, 
My wish list for everlasting suspension bushes is rubber everywhere except sway bar.. (poly make a massive handling difference)
shocker rubbers could be poly also, but i doub't you'll notice them. 
 

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I use the opentracker ones, they use roller bearings, bliss, very smooth

 

I have global west UCA and LCA both on bearings on the lower and Delrin (solid) on top, super pro on caster rods and sway bar and with 800pound springs and Koni the car is extremely smooth with no harshness at all, smoother than my mk6 GTI

 

 global west arms have added caster in them and have built in Shelby drop, they drop the top arm almost half inch more and no binding issues, it's a nice bit of kit, no fouling on anything

 

 

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I use the opentreacker ones, they use roller bearings, bliss, very smooth
 
I have global west UCA and LCA both on bearings on the lower and Delrin (solid) on top, super pro on caster rods and sway bar and with 800pound springs and Koni the car is extremely smooth with no harshness at all, smoother than my mk6 GTI
 
 


Got a link for that one Broken Wheel? I wasn't after track-day handling, just a cheap, easy upgrade from my existing setup. Yours sounds much more hardcore than mine.


i'd use poly bushes if you have them, but i'd keep an eye on them.. the castor ones chopped out quick on My car but made a difference to handling


Poly really needs a fresh supply of moly grease to keep from chopping out. The old Nolathanes were notorious for doing that. I've heard about the castor (or radius) rod bushes and how going to full poly makes the ride a lot harsher. I'm thinking rubber on the front bush and poly on the rear. Rubber to absorb lateral shock from road travel but poly to take the cornering (side) loads better.


My wish list for everlasting suspension bushes is rubber everywhere except sway bar.. (poly make a massive handling difference)
shocker rubbers could be poly also, but i doub't you'll notice them.


I'm running old-school Konis up front so poly might be a bit harsh on a shock as efficient as them. One way to find out I guess.

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Polyurethane for the radius rod bush. If you want a performance improvement that's one of the big ones. 

I would not expect it to increase road noise much if at all since it works as a fulcrum on such a big lever that has no longitudinal load unless under braking. The lever should absorb the majority of the noise.?

I've not noticed an increase of road noise on the 3 xfals I've done, but I have definitely noticed the turn in and mid corner improve dramatically.

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One thing to consider. How much are you spending on suspension? 

Spring saddels 200

Shocks 400

Lowered springs 350

 

... For 1000 bucks you can upgrade both sides with coil overs and this gives fully adjustable shock and ride height and a rose joint lower mount onto the UCA. 

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Cheers for that, will check out ASAP
One thing to consider. How much are you spending on suspension? 
Spring saddels 200
Shocks 400
Lowered springs 350
 
... For 1000 bucks you can upgrade both sides with coil overs and this gives fully adjustable shock and ride height and a rose joint lower mount onto the UCA. 
Not doing springs, trying to find saddles that are reasonable (so far about 75 for a rubber pair), already got Konis that I might pull down and rebuild. Coil overs would be nice but I can't justify that on a family hack. Maybe on the XB one day?

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look the thing with the open tracker bearing spring saddle is this:

does not add harshness at all

does make the ride smoother with harder springs

does make the ride a lot smoother with normal springs

never have to grease it etc. and can be rebuildable 

 

So yes it does make a good difference that you feel when unexpected, it's not a night and day difference but it's got a smoothness to it that is hard to pick but it's here, strangely enough i felt it more on the wet when the car leans it's a little more taut. I don't think it's a performance mod thou as I could not really get a chance to test it on the track and on the street you get locked up finding the limit of a well sorted old box falcon (sad hey)

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look the thing with the open tracker bearing spring saddle is this:
does not add harshness at all
does make the ride smoother with harder springs
does make the ride a lot smoother with normal springs
never have to grease it etc. and can be rebuildable 
 
So yes it does make a good difference that you feel when unexpected, it's not a night and day difference but it's got a smoothness to it that is hard to pick but it's here, strangely enough i felt it more on the wet when the car leans it's a little more taut. I don't think it's a performance mod thou as I could not really get a chance to test it on the track and on the street you get locked up finding the limit of a well sorted old box falcon (sad hey)
I also use the opentracker roller spring perches. I agree with brokens description.
Best I can describe is.....

without them... drive down road and swing wheel side to side... rolls like a boat.

With them.... that is hugely reduced.
More precise and rides bumps better.

Cost a bit but you buy them once.

Jack.


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Cheers for the feedback guys, all great info. Looks like I have some more (now much more informed) decisions to make.

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look the thing with the open tracker bearing spring saddle is this:
does not add harshness at all
does make the ride smoother with harder springs
does make the ride a lot smoother with normal springs
never have to grease it etc. and can be rebuildable 
 
So yes it does make a good difference that you feel when unexpected, it's not a night and day difference but it's got a smoothness to it that is hard to pick but it's here, strangely enough i felt it more on the wet when the car leans it's a little more taut. I don't think it's a performance mod thou as I could not really get a chance to test it on the track and on the street you get locked up finding the limit of a well sorted old box falcon (sad hey)
Hey Broken,
I don't know if ya read my Outback thread lately but when I fitted mine... there was a clearance issue right at back of the upper A arm..... bottom on the left at the back.
I ground mine right back to get proper clearance. Just the outers on both sides.

REALLY hard to see but binds there.
Easy to suss out. If you cant slide a piece of paper between arm and bearing holders on saddles. ..take off and modify.... like night and day.
:)

Im thinking cause the front end was copied from 68-74 Mustang that our upper arms used theirs as a template. Making the inner hole of the upper arm smaller.

Anyone got a Mustang arm from the states for comparison?

Anyway. .. just a heads up.
I thought they were ok when Binding. .. after a clean up... lovely.

Jack

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I use the Global West arms so might be different 
They're the ones with built-in caster (offset ball joint to rear)?

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Looks pretty trick, lots of money in that I'll bet

 

I'll not be doing the 1/8" to rear location if/when I do the 1" Shelby drop (ie like yours) as there's no room for the end of the pin. Anyway I think that spec is for pre-66 Mustangs with different geometry.

 

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Looks pretty trick, lots of money in that I'll bet

 

I'll not be doing the 1/8" to rear location if/when I do the 1" Shelby drop (ie like yours) as there's no room for the end of the pin. Anyway I think that spec is for pre-66 Mustangs with different geometry.

 

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Money no object because previous car was an XF same engine and drivetrain and the balljoint failed flipping the car in turn 1 at QR

 

This is just good insurance and cheaper than a new chassis especially with the crazy prices x series demand these days

 

With these arms you don’t have to move the arm to the rear as caster is built in so it fits well in the space, tyres rub a little at full lock thou so have to be a little careful when reversing but forward it’s ok as it will scrape but not rip the bar out

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Mmmmm..... globalwest upper and lower arms.....
Drool..... one day.... oh one day they will be mine...

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Pressing out UCA bushes:

 

 

Pushing on pivot pin to remove bush at opposite end. Whole lot comes out with a bang

f90f4a3c1dc30db8d7b2efa094bb9117.jpg

 

Notice special base fabbed to fit around the shape of the arm

276ee411ceae5223d8f1452e0bdc1bab.jpg

 

Flipped, pushing out rubber first

71e5d5fc4a3ad0d1ca2f1947456cd7e3.jpg

 

Then the sleeve, initially with a flat block until it's flush, then the last bit pushed through with a socket. If you were to make up a tool, you could do it in one step: OD needs to be 38mm, with a locating shoulder of 35mm dia. Possibly, you could have a spigot on the front of that too to locate inside the rubber, and do the whole lot at once. I chose the quick/dodgy way.

b64d5eaa9ecd2875b77db1371ab77b08.jpg

 

The tool:

8f9a471ca01cc95adf4742539fffe883.jpg

 

How it fits on the arm:

1c210446cc3f02b6b96c2eb68b3aaa81.jpg

 

The tool is made symmetrical so it fits either end of the UCA.

a71e04211cf4156c9c53589ca92e9cc6.jpg

 

Total job time: 50 min including making up the press tool. Without, less than 20 min both arms.

 

Will post pics of new bushes going in, including special tools.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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