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Undefeated

Efi 2barrel efi kits verse Holley carby.

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Ok guys,

lets chat about the current bolt on self learning EFI 2 barrel ( or 4 barrel ) ,yes bolt on carb style EFi kits from FiTech and Holley that are out there now.

1st)  no I don’t feel like bolting up and connecting crank angle sensors  , soldering crap together and everything else...then  doing  dyno time with a laptop, , selecting injectors.. and so on.. if I wanted to spend 5k+ I’d drop in a 8! ( Or I think I’d just smash in a 2nd hand Barra for complexity ). This basic style of EFI is a simple $800-$900, it’s  bolt on and go, this seams a ok upgrade on top of what I got, it comes with a hand controller to fine tune it a little.

Let’s just pretend I want to keep my old 250..as it is, sell my holleys, and just put a efi syle carb  on as a replacement for the  350 Holley that’s currently there..keeping it as simple as possible.. this is a Carb replacement..

so I have a couple 350 holleys on the bench, and I’m running a redline tourqer manifold,Extractors and some sort of choppy cam.. (the compression hits my hand from a metre away so it may have other mods..) .. frankly I don’t know what’s inside it, I just want something that will idle  clean and runs ok..

So for me, I’d rather just bolt down something that goes well, And it has to do that on top  of what I currently have..( whatever that is..) I want it to start cold nice and go ok.. simple with no smell of fuel, popping or rough running.. 

So, before I waste another $ , I’m thinking just selling my 350 holleys for $100 each on gumtree, then looking at the possibility of  just bolting down and running one of these self tuning EFI style  2 barrel carbs from FiTech or Holley on the Redline manifold..

has as anybody run one yet on a 250?

give me your opinions..(and who knows, I may even try run a std style air cleaner housing just to mess around with people  that little bit more ;)

 

 

 

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Ando has setup one on a 2v 250, he may have some answers you your questions. Personally I like the idea of them and a couple of times I've seriously considered one for the cuzzo

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I’ve done a heap of reading about Fitech, Holley, MSD, Edelbrock, Summit Max 500, and all the other brands of carb replacement EFI systems.

I like the idea, and 99% of the people that have had problems has come down to installation error or their own tuning error.

It’s something I’d like to get for the XD one day.


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The self learning stuff I have used is not very awe inspiring, particularly if you have a decent stick and 6 cylinder. The self learning just doesn't seem to cut it.  

The fitech stuff works ok on v8's engines but to me I think if your looking for it to be a panacea to all your problems, I think you might be disappointed. 

A 6al2 programmable with map sensor input and a properly tuned 350 Holley on the new small Aussiespeed 2 barrel would shit on it in my honest opinion. 

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I’m reading a lot about the FiTech, I keep reading bad customer support..bad customer support.. but on eBay there like $900. For something that’s possibly a bolt down and go this is good..

 

Watched the  engine masters Efi verse Carb challenge , the Holley sniper efi beat the Holley HP carb..there was no tuning needed as it self tuned, but they spent a lot of time on the carb to try beat it, tuning as best they could, and it still lost.

 

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I haven’t yet tried any of these systems..

Ando76, No, it was on a V8.. but if it’s atomisation then what would be better? Not saying a carb isn’t a bad way to go, I love carby motors and the more computerised the more I dislike..

I’ve had a few Aussiespeed manifolds through in both 2 & 4 barrel,  yes  aussiespeed have nice products, but I’m staying with the Redline tourqer manifold as that’s what’s available to me atm, I will possibly fit one of there pigs into it to try at a latter date.

So leaning towards the Holley sniper 2 barrel system over the FiTech as they have to many  customer reports complaining about the lack of support. No problems there with the Holley sniper efi ( example:  https://www.efisystempro.com/efi-pro-hangout/holley-sniper-efi-installation-tips).  they wouldn’t risk there name on something that’s not well sorted,plus they have a very nice touch screen that lets the user play with afr graphs with just a swipe of the finger like a phone..but the Holley EFI supports up to 400hp / Fitech is 350hp on the 2 barrel systems.

The Sniper can control many functions including thermo fans and ignition control.

One thing of interest I noticed in this posted video below is they had problems with the EFI carb because it needed a open manifold , the dual plane upset the EFI.. I’m at a gues that the spray pattern of the injectors requires a single plane. This seams to be a common problem with all the systems atm , they like some plenium..

I doubt many of us could tune a carb as well as these Engine Master guys? But the self learning aspect of the Holley EFI still beat there best tune on the carb, it also beat  even there custom tune on the EFI.. 

 

i don’t have dyno time to play with, I also don’t have  a box full of carb parts to chop and change stuff. ( especially if even the best  carb tunners  can’t match it!) ...so a self tuning bolt down system appeals..the Fitech or Holley efi system would probably go ok from what I’m seeing? If you can show it’s  not suitable please do 

 

 

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I'll butt in as have a couple of points to add:

I guess it comes down to what the EFI system is happy doing; whether or not the engine's requirements are outside the capabilities of the system.

Example: a low vac/high throttle opening at ldle (typical of a radical cam) might upset the computer because it sees it as load. Also, the computer only knows how much oxygen is in the exhaust. If there is incomplete combustion (again with the radical cam), the oxygen content in the exhaust gas will be high and thus, thinking it's lean, the computer will (mistakenly) give it more fuel. Think of what happens when someone installs a high-overlap cam into a MAP controlled E-series engine. It goes a bit haywire.

The concept of the self-tune function rides entirely on the ability of the O2 sensor to read what the exhaust is doing. It may well be that a MAP-controlled, closed-loop system is unsuitable for race applications. The makers of the EFI have to make certain assumptions about what it's being bolted to and tune accordingly, whereas a big dumb old carby just does what you tell it to do no matter what, albeit with much trial-and-error to get there.

Carbies require a lot of experience to get running right, but once dialled in, do an amazing job for what they are. EFI tries to do all the thinking for you, but sometimes it can be a bit too smart for its own good.

This is a bit of a blanket statement, but I think that on a milder engine, I think it would be great. However in some scenarios (particularly idle and cruise) on an engine over 1 horse per cube, self-learning EFI may be of no advantage, even detrimental.

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from the dealing with the carby/dyno guy yesterday, and him expaining how 4 barrels don't work well on 6cyls until high in the revs(because the runners are so long between firing order, (1,5,3,6,2,4) so after fueling cyl 1, the fuel mix isn't as vapourised as well by the time its next turn on number 5 is.. that was his reasoning..

so in that case i'd want injectors into the ports. they'd have to be better suited to big cams with low vac..  he did also say he would fit a 2 barrel to a 6cyl for same reason(keep the air speed faster.. what i should have asked, is if it would be beneficial to have say a 4 barrel manifold with 2 barrel carb for more plenumn volume? 

would need testing to know. 
but, he is a carb expert, and ended up going LPG on his Leyland V8 because the manifold didn't keep the fuel mix vapourised well enough(custom, 4 barrel maniflold no coolant through it) 

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Some interesting comments there deandx.  Has he ever tried a four barrel east wested?  

Gerg - once again you are all over it. 

Undefeated - I've done self tuning efi, albeit with the crude MSD (a Holley Brand) Atomic system.  I swore I'd never do another one as the 'self learning' in that system was pure garbage. The algorithms they had were way off for the i6. Yes things may have improved, particularly with the Holley sniper ecu as a trained user can get in there and change parameters.  But realistically why would you bother with the expense. It amazes me that people would happily lay down $1500+ dollars on a 'self learning' ecu but they wouldn't spend $450 for 2 hours of dyno tuning by a competent operator. Its just mental to me.  

I recently sent my customer to Zoran @ Zox performance in Brissy to have the tune cleaned up because I couldn't make it down there for some time. He paid $450 for the dyno time and he agrees that it's the best money he has ever spent.  Zoran only had to go down 1 jet size from base but was able to trim the ignition curve etc etc.  The car is now a jet and won't need to be touched. 

But hey - if you want to do it - do it.  I'm just offering my experience and advice.  The choice is yours.  

 

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Thanks Ando..yes Zorans good on carbs.

 I kinda have some hope for this system.. it can substitute many systems and consolidates them into one, so cost wise balances out..so  will order one soon. Hopefully my experience will be a good one.

but a couple things I like..

1)they can take mild boost.

2) they can run fans and ignition.

3) they are easily transferable from engine to engine,  as long as a Holley Flange is there to bolt down on , so that opens up some options for possible later engine swap (maybe with some of Aussie speeds other manifolds)

4) there is a large support network,  a simple search on YouTube for Holley Sniper shows Holley Tech vids, from installing 02 sensors to programming ignition, remapping fuel curves..

5) the master kit comes with everything needed including a inline fuel pump and fuel lines.

 

 

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If you want my opinion (Hahah, Good one.) wihout reading the whole thread.

If you want EFI.
Fucking put it on. 

There is little to nil excuse for using throttle body injection of aftermarket "Bolt on" self learning systems when proper EFi installations can be adapted and used so easily with much better results.

If you want to keep a "carb" manifold and look. Just leave the fkn carby on it..

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5 hours ago, matt_lamb_160 said:

How much boost can these things handle? 

Matt, I’m going to run one, I’m done with Carbs, and apart from a  nostalgia build I see no reason to not try this.. to think the same people who gave us the Holley carby havnt improved significantly on it in 30years just baffles me..and I will go  just the basic 2 barrel system..since everything on my car is old I want to replace the entire fuel system so it’s reliable.

Interesting is I have not found one single video of a carb beating it, not 1! , even after extensive tuning and dyno time..

 

there’s a few videos on YouTube of boosted cars.

Importantly with that there is  a lot of tech videos about doing ignition control, fuel mapping.

 

but from what I see most just do a basic hook up in 2 hours and go drive.

 

Its interesting to watch the Steve Morris promotion of this Holley product on one of his big HP monsters..Sniper beat his carb too! and he lets it out the Carb guys are in for it with this..( Steve Morrris is a house hold name in the States)

 

 

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Matt, I’m going to run one, I’m done with Carbs, and apart from drag racing I see no reason to not try this.. to think the same people who gave us the Holley carby havnt improved significantly on it in 30years just baffles me..and since everything on my car is old I want to replace the entire fuel system so it’s reliable.
I have not found one single video of a carb beating it, even after extensive tuning and dyno time..
 
there’s a few videos on YouTube of boosted cars.
Importantly with that there is  a lot of tech videos about doing ignition control, fuel mapping.
 
but from what I see most just do a basic hook up in 2 hours and go drive.
[/url]  
 

Are you going to go all out for the 4 barrel or 2? Make sure you keep us posted on the results.


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I agree with what Greg has said, but I also say do it.

And the argument for getting this rather than paying someone to tune a carb is the same as having programmable ignition rather than getting a re-graphed dizzy (i.e. you change something and you don't need to pay again). It also means you don't need to take it somewhere and talk to someone, haha.

That last vid it goes pretty lean on transition though.

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2 hours ago, NZXD said:

Sorry NZXD, I had edited it in now to that above post, I’m going the basic 2 barrel system.. it’s all I need for a basic street car.. 

most of you guys are little more hardcore,  so I guess a 4 barrel would be better suited to you. But there’s some real big systems coming by the looks of it from Holley... Dyno tuners for carbs are going to be scratching soon.

 

As for my humble project will let you guys know how it goes.

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From what I’ve read I’d rather the Holley sniper over the Fitech and if I ever went that way with the XD I’d go for their basic 4 barrel set up.

I think the most common complaint is people having rpm noise or similar with leads and things being to close to the ecu, but a well planned layout should sort that.

I’ll be watching. 🤟


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3 hours ago, NZXD said:

From what I’ve read I’d rather the

I think the most common complaint is people having rpm noise or similar with leads and things being to close to the ecu, but a well planned layout should sort that.

I’ll be watching. emoji106.png🤟


 

Yes I’ve read that too.. this is new stuff so we are all on the ground floor.. 

 

this isn’t the McGee injection we tried ( my older brother tried that stuff) on in the 80s, as Steve Morris stated “ this IS Holleys  carb replacement!”

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Good luck with it.  Really keen to see the results of this newer system. One thing I learnt with it is don't expect it to be brilliant straight out of the box. It takes a good amount of driving to come good, but once there it should be sweet. Benefits of your system is you can get into it if you need to. 

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Im staying tuned too.
Personally on a 6 if you want injection.. . Nothing beats ITB's
Sound tits... go like wildcats... all injected itb's do. Best even flow.

I think these bolt on kits are getting better though.


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That would be great to have a bit of a write-up on it. I very much like the idea of bolt-on, drive away performance. If your setup is toward the milder end of tuning, the system should work very nicely.

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