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Penrite Pro Gear has made my gearbox not want to shift

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I have a ba turbo, 5 speed (t5z)

we changed the oil from ?? oem ? oil , to penrite progear , the one that penrite recommends

now i have to revmatch the thing to get it to shift especially when its hot?

the gearbox was fine before

im not sure what other gear oils work but thats twice ive used penrite in 2 different gearboxes and its dramatically fucked up the gearbox lol

 

what oils do other people on here use? from what i can gather castrol transmax z is the go

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Poorer shifting when hot could mean that the oil is actually a bit too thin for the syncros to work nicely. They do rely on some viscosity in the oil to aid with the syncros biting.

The oil you put in might actually do too good a job (especially when hot) and reduce friction in the syncros to a point where they don't grab enough. This is why a lot of syncros boxes don't like EP gear oil.

I'd choose a synthetic ATF over a mineral one for a heavy duty application, but when all said and done I can't explain why that oil isn't working, when it was what Penrite recommends. Have you put Lubrizol in as per Ford procedure? That tends to help shift quality.

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Just read a bit about it for my own interest (I have a T5 behind a V8) and it looks like synthetic might not be the go. Just good old Dex-lll or equivalent with the right additives ie: that Nulon stuff with Teflon in it (I call it donkey semen)

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9 minutes ago, gerg said:

Just read a bit about it for my own interest (I have a T5 behind a V8) and it looks like synthetic might not be the go. Just good old Dex-lll or equivalent with the right additives ie: that Nulon stuff with Teflon in it (I call it donkey semen)

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Its actually quite difficult to find online the specific oil for the t5z (although im 99% sure that logically it would use the same oil as a normal t5)

i have a 20l drum of dex 3 at home , i should prob try that first i guess

i was going to get some syntrans z today but it would suck to waste like 100 dollars if that doesnt work

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In my experience using (mineral) gear oil in place of Dex III, the box should be worse when its cold. When it warms up its always been brilliant. Less rollover noise, better feel and quicker shifts. However, I don't know if using gear oil lead to the demise of the synchro's in my T5 either. Personally I'd be using Castrol Transmax Z in the T5 (I will be using the Pro Gear in the T56 though, as its designed specifically for it) as the synchros in the T5 boxes are rubbish (updated ones are ok-ish, but old style are paper-y) as it is and gear oil doesn't play well with them at all hence the Borg Warner/Tremec reccomendation of Dex III. I know T56 has same reccomendation of Dex III but there are plenty of reviews (both Ford and Daewoo) of it being the best fluid for the T56.

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13 minutes ago, josh1990 said:

In my experience using (mineral) gear oil in place of Dex III, the box should be worse when its cold. When it warms up its always been brilliant. Less rollover noise, better feel and quicker shifts. However, I don't know if using gear oil lead to the demise of the synchro's in my T5 either. Personally I'd be using Castrol Transmax Z in the T5 (I will be using the Pro Gear in the T56 though, as its designed specifically for it) as the synchros in the T5 boxes are rubbish (updated ones are ok-ish, but old style are paper-y) as it is and gear oil doesn't play well with them at all hence the Borg Warner/Tremec reccomendation of Dex III. I know T56 has same reccomendation of Dex III but there are plenty of reviews (both Ford and Daewoo) of it being the best fluid for the T56.

i put penrite in my 6 speed in my xb. same result , shifts felt fuckin horrible ! i dont know why penrite lists it on their site as suitable

 

ill try regular dex 3 then if its better ill prob put transmax z in it 

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Don't forget the additive (either lubrizol or nulon) that will give better protection in the high pressure areas like gear teeth and bearings.

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21 minutes ago, josh1990 said:

The box has 10k kms on it. If it doesn't work as advertised I'll get a refund on it and run something else. 

mine had 16k , id buy some transmax z and be prepared to change it out immediatey lol. if not just dont open the bottle of transmax and return it 

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20 minutes ago, gerg said:

Don't forget the additive (either lubrizol or nulon) that will give better protection in the high pressure areas like gear teeth and bearings.

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1 small tube thing is enough to treat a gearbox from memory?

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I used power steering fluid in my T5z (XR8 AU) and never gave me grief, done over 60k and used to change the fluid every 20.000 or track day, yes I drove the thing hard and shifting was fine, sometimes 3rd was meh but that was probably me

I used the Royal Purple Max something power steering fluid

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since people like to use that g70 nulon additive...

 

do nulon make a good gearbox oil? 

 

would make sense to not mix brands?

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Just watched a clip on Jay Lenovs Garage today about the TKO600 and the T56, the company rep says good old DEXIII all the way. He said pretty much what we said all along, that the oil is a compromise between protecting and cooling the metal surfaces and being "thin" enough to allow the syncros to bite.

If you must use Nulon, I'm sure they make a DEXIII equivalent.

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28 minutes ago, gerg said:

Just watched a clip on Jay Lenovs Garage today about the TKO600 and the T56, the company rep says good old DEXIII all the way. He said pretty much what we said all along, that the oil is a compromise between protecting and cooling the metal surfaces and being "thin" enough to allow the syncros to bite.

If you must use Nulon, I'm sure they make a DEXIII equivalent.

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I have a 20L of dex3 at home and the additive

 

ill sus out my mate / mechanic after he gets back from holidays and change it out

 

the 80w .. or whatever he replaced the penrite with is OK.. but shifts shit when hot

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First,

Just use a good quality DEXIII.
I say again. IF YOU HAVE A NON-World-Class series T5 TRANSMISSION, USE DEXIII OIL!
Tremec stipulate this in their service manual and info packs on the transmission and this info is available online, on the tremec website.

Whats that, you just arrived in this thread and you've got gear oil in your world class T5???? TAKE IT OUT AND FILL WITH DEXIII, OR I WILL COME TO YOUR HOUSE AND KICK YOUR DOG, AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE A DOG, I WILL BUY YOU ONE ON YOUR BIRTHDAY, WAIT TILL IT GROWS UP, THEN COME TO YOUR HOUSE AND KICK IT.
If you mechanic friend tells you to put gear oil in. They are WRONG.
If your local transmission "specialist" fills it with gear oil, You have my permission to leave them a scathing review on Google(tm)

Here:
http://www.tremec.com/anexos/TRSM-T5-0510-R1_173.pdf
Section 2, Para 2-4
2-4. APPROVED LUBRICANT. Most T5 transmission models use DexronÒ II automatic transmission fluid. Refer the vehicle owner’s manual or service manual for lubricant specifications. CAUTION Do not mix different bands or types of transmission lubricant. DO NOT USE GEAR OIL IN THE T5 TRANSMISSION SINCE THIS MAY DAMAGE THE BLOCKING RING MATERIAL.

Step 1, Pick up a bottle of DexIII
Step 2, Turn it over and read "suitable where DEX1,2,3 is specified"
Step 3, TAKE THE GEAR OIL OUT, AND PUT THIS IN YOUR T5 (Disclaimer: as long as its WC spec)


Okay, sorry, Tangent. Moving on.

I post the information below not as a statement of fact, but simply as information. It should be cross referenced and you should draw your own conclusion as to the effectiveness of oil additives.
Here i refer to Nulon g70 and it's PTFE additive claims.
Disclaimer: I have used Nulon g70 in my own T5 with DexIII, And was once an advocate for it. I have never been able to fully make up my mind about this as i "felt" i experienced smoother shifting with the g70. But was never able to actually substantiate this claim.
My biggest "Don't do it" for this topic has always been "If this stuff is as good as it says, then the engineers that spend their careers designing and mixing oils, would be putting it in there themselves. Who am i to decide that these engineers don't know what they are doing, and take it upon myself to tamper with their product?"

The TL:DR for the below is: PTFE has no place as an additative, the company that created the compound said so. No independent study has ever proven benefits to it's use"
Where it says "Slick 50" it's pretty much an american version of a PTFE additive

and with that i give you this:

 

 


Slick 50 was subject to a class action lawsuit and at least another independent one.
DuPont refused to sell them PTFE so they used cheap clone PTFE that was rubbish. Not that PTFE particles have any place in an engine





Out of the frying pan …

One friction modifier whose efficacy is the center of much attention is polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE or TFE, for short, the generic name for DuPont Chemical's Teflon), of which there is a family of similar yet distinct formulations. PTFEs boast the lowest coefficient of friction of any known material. Back in 1980, DuPont told everybody that their studies showed PTFE offered "no significant benefits as an engine additive." This statement set off a storm of controversy that still has DuPont spokespeople walking on eggs. However, you will notice that none of the PTFE additive suppliers are allowed to use the word "Teflon" in their advertisements or product information.

For most people "Teflon" calls up the mental image of a no-stick frying pan. PTFE engine oil treatments work quite a bit differently than the PTFE in a cooking utensil, however. When coating a frying pan the metal is spotlessly cleaned in prepara tion for the application of PTFE. This situation is never going to happen spontaneously in a motor, no matter what you use as a pour-in cleaning agent.

As a motor oil additive, PTFE powder is held in suspension in a liquid carrier. Because most (if not all) PTFE resins are more or less tailored for their end use, and because few (if any) of the available powders have been tailored for use as an oil additive, PTFE oil additive marketers must select a PTFE that was compounded for some other purpose (such as frying pans, wire insulation, etc.).

Powders come in different particle sizes, with the smaller sizes typically costing a bit more than the larger sizes. For those who can not afford (or find a source for) the size they want, custom grinding houses can take a less expensive 400 to 500 micron powder, freeze it with liquid nitrogen, and grind it to whatever size is needed. Most of the PTFE oil additives use a particle anywhere from 20 microns down to the sub-micron size.

The very characteristic of PTFE that makes it so slippery also makes it tough to get it where the action is in the motor. For this reason, the carrier liquid is often an affinity agent that bonds the PTFE to the friction areas. These take the form of chemicals such as tricresyl phosphate (TCP) and triaryo phosphate (TAP). The use of the right affinity agent has the positive side effect of boosting lubrication performance whether or not there is any PTFE involved. Some of the affinity agents are so tenacious that it is jokingly said you could lubricate your engine with water if it had enough affinity agent in it. Because of this, some high-performance oils (such as Synthoil) are blended to include affinity agents from the start.

Listening to some of the claims made for PTFE you might get the impression that it is the solution to almost any problem you might have, real or imagined. So why aren't the Big Oil companies putting it in their products?

Most of the oil companies are reluctant to discuss what is or is not in their oil. Off the record, however, many oil company spokespeople express concern that as a solid, PTFE does not stay in suspension forever. If the oil sits for too long the PTFE will settle out; an unacceptable situation for the oil companies we talked to. And as difficult as it is to get the PTFE in suspension in ideal situations, once combustion by-products and oxidation begin to change the chemical composition of the oil, keeping the PTFE in suspension poses a whole new set of problems.

Most oil company engineers also cited additive package balance as a major consideration. Whether talking about pour point depressants or oxidation inhibitors, each felt that whatever the gain in friction reduction the price was too high in other areas of lubricant performance.

If a PTFE additive sounds good to you, the best bet is to contact the manufacturer for test data that can be correlated against other known good lubricants. The Sequence IIID, Sequence VD, and L-38 tests previously mentioned, for example, are industry-wide standards that readily allow comparison against traditional lubricants. The manufacturer that can back up its claims with test results is a lot more convincing than the one with beautiful sales brochures filled with unsubstantiated claims.




Slick 50 and other engine oil additives supposedly reduce engine wear and increase fuel efficiency.

You may have heard the commercial or seen the ad:

Multiple tests by independent laboratories have shown that when properly applied to an automotive engine, Slick 50 Engine Formula reduces wear on engine parts. Test results have shown that Slick 50 treated engines sustained 50 percent less wear than test engines run with premium motor oil alone.

There are about 50 other products on the market which make similar claims, many of them being just duplicate products under different names from the same company. The price for a pint or quart of these engine oil additives runs from a few dollars to more than $20. Do these products do any good? Not much. Do they do any harm. Sometimes.

What's in these miracle lubricants, anyway? If they're so wonderful, why don't car manufacturers recommend their usage? Why don't oil companies get into the additive business? Where are these studies mentioned by Petrolon (Slick 50)? Probably in the same file cabinet as the tobacco company studies proving the health benefits of smoking.

The basic ingredient is the same in most of these additives: 50 weight engine oil with standard additives. The magic ingredient in Slick 50, Liquid Ring, Matrix, QM1 and T-Plus from K-Mart is Polytetrafluoroethylene. Don't try to pronounce it: call it PTFE. But don't call it Teflon, which is what it is, because that is a registered trademark. Dupont, who invented Teflon, claims that "Teflon is not useful as an ingredient in oil additives or oils used for internal combustion engines." But what do they know? They haven't seen the secret studies done by Petrolon (Slick 50).

PTFE is a solid which is added to engine oil and coats the moving parts of the engine.

However, such solids seem even more inclined to coat non-moving parts, like oil passages and filters. After all, if it can build up under the pressures and friction exerted on a cylinder wall, then it stands to reason it should build up even better in places with low pressures and virtually no friction.

This conclusion seems to be borne out by tests on oil additives containing PTFE conducted by the NASA Lewis Research Center, which said in their report, "In the types of bearing surface contact we have looked at, we have seen no benefit. In some cases we have seen detrimental effect. The solids in the oil tend to accumulate at inlets and act as a dam, which simply blocks the oil from entering. Instead of helping, it is actually depriving parts of lubricant" (Rau).

In defense of Slick 50, tests done on a Chevy 6 cylinder engine by the University of Utah Engineering Experiment Station found that after treatment with the PTFE additive the test engine's friction was reduced by 13.1 percent, the output horsepower increased from 5.3 percent to 8.1 percent, and fuel economy improved as well. Unfortunately, the same tests concluded that "There was a pressure drop across the oil filter resulting from possible clogging of small passageways." Oil analysis showed that iron contamination doubled after the treatment, indicating that engine wear increased (Rau).

the FTC and Slick 50

In 1997, three subsidiaries of Quaker State Corp. (the makers of Slick 50) settled Federal Trade Commission charges that ads for Quaker State's Slick 50 Engine Treatment were false and unsubstantiated. According to the FTC complaint, claims such as the following made in Slick 50 ads falsely represented that without Slick 50, auto engines generally have little or no protection from wear at start-up and commonly experience premature failure caused by wear:

"Every time you cold start your car without Slick 50 protection, metal grinds against metal in your engine."

"With each turn of the ignition you do unseen damage, because at cold start-up most of the oil is down in the pan. But Slick 50's unique chemistry bonds to engine parts. It reduces wear up to 50% for 50,000 miles."

"What makes Slick 50 Automotive Engine Formula different is an advanced chemical support package designed to bond a specially activated PTFE to the metal in your engine."

In fact, the FTC said, "most automobile engines are adequately protected from wear at start-up when they use motor oil as recommended in the owner's manual. Moreover, it is uncommon for engines to experience premature failure caused by wear, whether they have been treated with Slick 50 or not.

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Whats that, you just arrived in this thread and you've got gear oil in your world class T5???? TAKE IT OUT AND FILL WITH DEXIII, OR I WILL COME TO YOUR HOUSE AND KICK YOUR DOG, AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE A DOG, I WILL BUY YOU ONE ON YOUR BIRTHDAY, WAIT TILL IT GROWS UP, THEN COME TO YOUR HOUSE AND KICK IT.




That's gold, quote of the year

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That argument is definitely true for engines, as the PTFE particles do a great job being collected in the filter and other places but don't do squat elsewhere.

Gearboxes don't have that same problem, they stay bathing in the same oil no matter what, with no filter or galleries to plug up with little Teflon chunks. I do worry about the syncro material clogging up with the stuff as they wear into each other. I've actually seen something like this happen while using a teflon-containing WD fluid with wet n dry and found hard blobs (presumably PTFE) galling up and forming on the paper.

Regardless, I've used G70 many times, including in T5 boxes, without any long-term trouble. Before and after treatment, I'd call it a 10-20% improvement in shift quality and smoothness. My T5 is in its 3rd car now and still shifts as good as you'd expect a T5 to.

Regarding engineer's recommendations: they do specify in the factory manuals that Lubrizol be added to the ATF in all Aus Ford applications. I don't believe it has PTFE added but does have friction modifiers.

Some believe you can skip it if you just run straight Transmax Z.

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9 hours ago, Crazy2287 said:

Rawdeal.  If you intend on putting transmax z in your tremec t5, then i will be forced to extend my dog kicking clause to inc any dogs in your possession for a maximum penalty of 10 kicks per year for 20 years.  

isnt transmax z just full synth dex 3? which is what you wanted a good quality dex3? 

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I think it's Dex IV spec, but at 50 bucks a litre it would want to be worth it, which I don't reckon it would be.

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