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Mixalis

250 Crossflow Fuel System

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Hi guys,

 

I’m currently assembling a list of parts to put together my own fuel system for the corty. Aim is to just buy all these bits once and not worry about it after it’s all done as the motor will be staying N/A Carburettor. Currently the 250 is making around 220hp crank. Obviously wanting to future proof this system for when the motor comes out again later on. This is what I’m thinking so far, and also a couple of questions at the end as well:

 

Holley Blue pump

 

Holley billet adjustable regulator with return line on AED billet regulator bracket

 

Billet pre and post pump filters (I have these already just need to find out what threads they are to get the fittings)

 

3/8” aluminium hardline replacing factory line

 

3/8” braided line replacing factory hose

 

Holley electric fuel pressure gauge – old school look mounted in car. Will be on 3/8” barb fuel pressure gauge fitting with 1/8” NPT port

 

3/8” return line back to tank (will be mimicking the tank fittings from the Stealth EFI Holley Master Kit for the return line into tank – buying those parts individually)

 

All fittings will be NPT to 3/8” barb (or AN to barb for the filters once I go check them out). Lines clamped down on fittings, and also lines clamped down on flared hardlines

 

Aussiespeed fuel pump block off plate

 

 

Now a couple of qtns:

 

The sender unit would have the factory 5/16” tube, should I get one of those 5/16” to 3/8” reducers straight after the outlet? Or is the only option to get it cut off and 3/8” welded in place?

 

For the return line set up, drill into tank or sender unit?

 

The car runs hardline across the car to passenger side before going rubber all along the straight edge down the length of the car. Any reason I should replace this section with hard line as well when I re do it?

 

 

Think theres more but well start off with this. This is the first time im having a go designing this so If theres something ive overlooked or a better way to go about something let us know

 

Cheers boys

Michael

 

 

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G'day Michael a couple of things to point out:

 

• Holley blues are pretty noisy

 

• Would be overkill on your engine

 

• 3/8" line would be overkill too

 

• More plumbing for gauges, etc means more possible points of failure. I'd try and keep the whole thing as dumb and simple as possible.

 

My suggestion: run a solid-state pulse pump inline. If you think you need two, run them in parallel with tee fittings before and after. They are internally regulated at a set pressure and with several types available, you buy the one you want based on its rated pressure.

 

They need no return line, draw bugger-all amps, are compact, very quiet, and can be mounted in any direction. They cost about 60 bucks for a decent one.

 

You could hook it up to your oil pressure light via a changeover relay. No oil pressure = no fuel supply. If you want all that other stuff just for show, go right ahead and ignore what I just said. But it won't be cheap, that's for sure.

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Seems your on it to me. I'd use a proflow fuel pump over a Holley blue. They are both vane style pumps but the proflow u it has a Bakelite insert so the vanes don't run against the cast body like they do on a Holley. They do a pump and reg set up for $120 and I've used them for a bit and they are awesome.

I like to use a hydraulic check valve at the pump, rather than those return regs. Less fuel line required so you save $$. If you have a look thru wagoon's build you will see his set up and what he did with the return.

If you go with proper anodised barb fittings you don't need hose clamps. They are proper push ons and they will not come off. Try it. You have to cut the hose to get them off.

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Thanks for the replies guys appreciate it

 

Aye Greg long time mate we gotta get something happening again with the nsw guys. Thanks for the tips, first up I was actually going to go for the solid state setup initially, to be exact I was going to use Holley Mighty Mite 32GPH that topped out at 7psi and still used 5/16" lines no return line. It was actually a Holley tech that I messaged that ended up putting me off it, I did make sure to tell him to assume some future head room like 350hp just incase, so maybe that's why. Then again he recommended one of those new $500 gerator pumps instead lol so idk if I trust his word completely. I was going to ask if that gerotor pump aerated fuel like a vane/rotary pump when not running a return line. Anyway, the way I see it it's definitely going to cost me more going down this route but I'm hoping this system will be able to cope with whatever N/A crossflow it ends up becoming in the future haha just will need a bit of mucking around to set it up this first time. I like the idea of parallel solid state pumps, I just assumed you only ran one but something to think about.

 

Ando thanks for the reply mate, funnily enough I was going to ask about proflow! Was thinking Holley cause I don't mind spending for the brand, but proflow is very well known and when I saw it (at less than half the price as well...) I wanted to eventually get some opinions. Which proflow do you recommend ? Cause they have the Red style 97gph or the Black style 140gph? If I'm going to run the return line and reg should I just go for the big one ? Don't think they have a Blue equivalent... I'll have a look at wagoons check valve set up, do you run it just after the pump or something to save fuel line ? Worst case don't mind running the adjustable Holley one at the carb would be nice to have some control over pressure but looking at all options for now

 

Thanks guys

 

 

 

 

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That faucet/solid state pump supplies 2.16l per minute and you only need 1.7l per minute to support 350HP. So you're not going to need 2 in parallel.

Don't worry about a return, and if your not running e85, stick with the factory fuel line. 

 

I think Gerg is onto something here, if your not after anything flashy then just KISS it. Keep It Simple Stupid.

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Thanks for the info Q I was pretty much ready to do that set up at the start but pretty tempted to do this big set up and just have it done, still confused as to why the Holley tech went against the solid state pump. I get from a numbers point of view that this facet pump will supply the enough fuel even at 7psi, just trying to work out there must be a reason why they don't recommend it, for modified engines maybe... not sure

 

Rob what's the fuel system you're running ?

 

 

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Go Aeromotive and don't look back, if you can't afford it i'd go for a Carter P4070 (https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/crt-p4070/overview/) this fuel pump is nice because it sucks from the tank and you can mount it to the chassis rail, it comes with rubber mounts, not as loud as Holley but still buzzing, nice buzz thou!

 

If you run a Holley carb then just get the P4070 and plumb it straight in the carb, it will sit at 8PSI all day without a regulator (self regulated) and it's cheap as chips and no need for returns etc. Vane type too! I use it as a lift pump for an Aeoromotive A1000 (overkill)

 

Keep in mind, -6AN will supply 500HP, no need to go overboard if you're only aiming for 300HP and no giggle gas. 

 

With the savings you have with this pump you can use braided PTFE hose from tank to carb, would never use rubber hose even braided for fuel under the car or in general, it will smell, don't listen to the blurb, never had braided PTFE fail or smell and they use steel fittings 

 

Get the Carter pump https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/crt-p4070/overview/

get two of these https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/aer-fbm2518/overview/ this is for the pump

get about 4 of these https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/aer-fbm1103/overview/

one of these https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/ear-175002erl/overview/

one of these https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/sum-220985/overview/

and your carb rail should have a port for your gauge

also change your fuel tank out to -6AN and use the Holley Hydramat (smallest one) as your pickup, this is also your filter

 

job done

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Who knows, they want people to think they need 300 dollar overkill pumps? Have been told heaps of bogus bullshit from "professionals" before. I dont expect that to ever change.

Just the other day i was talking to a technical expert at castrol as he stumbeled his way through explaining how the professional grade edge 0w40 was different to the retail one of the same name, till i told him i need to know for sure as im doing trend analysis on the oils and i can't do it if the oils are gonna be different. Then he had to tell me how he dosent think the analysis will pick up a difference between the oils...

 

Or how RRS say the coil strut suspension is thebfkn beez knees but don't tell you anything about the geometry issues it will cause with the wet noodle that is the front of an x-series.

 

Or when castlemain tell you the willwood brake kits they make are custom machined and no off shelf will fit but they wont give you dimentions or explian about how they custom machine them. And all along you know that 72 mustangs have identical spindals to xfal and willwood make off the shelf kits for them.

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Rob what's the fuel system you're running ?

 

 

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Aeromotive SS pump...noisey but it works and is street and time proven on my car. I use a large 4 port Mallory return reg to cut PSI and a Aeroflow dead head reg to trim PSI. Obviously mine is set up for Webers hence the set up but as this pump has done many PCM events many trips down Heathcote and Calder with up to 11 laps in 1 night while @ 31 degree's c. Did Drag Challenge (1800plus km's in 5 days with 5 race meetings) and just the other week did the trip to Summernats came 2nd in the NAT ASP 6cyl class again and drove home. Best part is it costs $260.

 

Ando and I actually have the runs on the board with decent HP carby xflows doing it our own way. Yes I could of used a Aeromotive dead head reg but as I actually do street my car ALOT I need cool cycled fuel.Yes I could use a different smaller pump to fed the webers 2.5PSI but what makes people think I didn't try it both ways and have them fail ? Nothing is on my car that wasn't put on as a improvement or necessity. If nothing else it can supply you ideas and options as our stuff is legit.

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I'll put it this way. If you run out of supply you will kill your engine. It's better to have a fraction more than be on the edge of the cliff just waiting for trouble. The system I detailed is what I use on my customer stuff. Speedway or road. It works and I know it's good for at least 283 RWHP. See Ryan engine for reference.

 

Just remember the rating of all the pumps is perfect world scenario and a lot are related at gph FREE FLOW, not regulated. Don't get me wrong those little clacker pumps are a bloody good thing but if you want to build a fuel system that is tried and proven in the HP range your talking about then I don't think you can go past the system I detailed. But at the end of the day it's your choice.

 

I can't wholly take the credit for my system. As I have said numerous times before, my best friend is a hydraulic expert and a rev head. We came up with it together. We tried it 13 years ago on our own burnout beasts. Then I've used it on multiple customer cars. I know it works 100%.

 

I'm sure others have their own favourites and that's cool.

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Thanks for the replies boys, always good to get a few more opinions. I'm still pretty set on getting a good system, hopefully just set and forget so whatever I throw at it later on it's not going to let go, plus having a heap of headroom is going to be a bonus.

 

I guess the main point of this thread was to see if I'm on the right track and if there's something I've overlooked or got wrong, but from what I can see I seem to have it alright, only exception being there's a couple more options for pumps so I guess I'll just wait and see what proflow pump ando runs on his and make a decision then.

 

Pretty much got all the part numbers I need, I'll price compare a lot of the stuff with some of the local guys here, and see how it compares to getting it from USA and go from there.

 

It's looking like I may end up with something similar to ando's set up with the exception I'll probably be regulating at the carb just have to fork out for a longer return system

 

While we're here , any opinions on drilling thru the sender unit to put in fittings for return line? And will it be a big deal if I run a 5/16" to 3/8" barb adaptor straight after pick up on sender unit before dropping into the pump ? In other words will the 5/16" section make a big difference to the supply to the pump during that initial gravity drop ?

 

 

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Ando is 100% correct, the pumps are usually rated at 14.4ish volts so if your onky at 12v flow will be less. But it is eazy to check flow rate on the system once assembeled.

If yiur keen on a flashy setup bro and have the coin then do it. Trick fuel systems just look so baller.

 

You'd be better off going 3/8 through the whole system if you can. Elbows and fittings are generally the biggest restriction. If your going for a flashy system, use dash 6 bulkhead fittings through the sender unit. Search for them on ebay as JIC dash 6 bulkhead or similar to that

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Hmm? i thought AN (JIC) specified an internal diameter, so all things in the size should be that internal minimum? But then, I made my system out of 37º flairs and JIC 6 male fittings and they all seemed to maintain internal diameter. Other fitting types could be different.

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 use these 

aer-fbm1103_w_ml.jpg

 

aer-fbm1122_w.jpg

 

the ID is consistent, you can drop a ball bearing through it, these are for PTFE hose, as I gave up on any rubber hose for fuel or oil, the other fittings are alloy/aluminium and they are pretty shit on the ID, my guess is steel is stronger and they don't have to muse as much?

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Using hyd fitting every day @ work I can attest to internal diameters been different but only to suit hose size or use based on pressure. You can get elbow or 45's that are formed to retain a full bore size also.But in saying that you get say a 1204c female hose end crimp fitting to suit a -4 (1/4) hose but you can also get a 1208c fitting to suit a -8 (1/2") and both will come with a 3/4 JIC female socket end. Only difference been bore size but both fittings will bolt onto the same 3/4 JIC male end,nipple or block so you have to know what to order first.

 

Still gets back to using a known supplier to get what you want and need. We use Hydralink solely and on my ute I used Aeroflow solely and have had zero issues with either.

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I'll just add one last thing to this discussion and it kinda important and the reason why Allan and I came up with the system we did.

 

Fuel Quality

 

Not the octane rating or brand. The quality of fuel delivered to the carb. Any internal bypass fuel pump will aerate the fuel and heat it. Both are not a good thing, even in a standard application. Ever heard a vane pump groan and be crazy noisy at idle? That's the fuel going thru the internal bypass and the poor old pump stuggling to deal with it, heating and aerating it.

 

So now you see why we made it that way and why I bash on about it. All the top line external pumps run them. They do it for a reason.

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As for the tank setup 4 cylinder Corty's run a return line so maybe look at that might make life easier as for finding a 4 cylinder Corty tank that could be slightly difficult but I'm sure you know other Corty people

 

 

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I'll just add one last thing to this discussion and it kinda important and the reason why Allan and I came up with the system we did.

 

Fuel Quality

 

Not the octane rating or brand. The quality of fuel delivered to the carb. Any internal bypass fuel pump will aerate the fuel and heat it. Both are not a good thing, even in a standard application. Ever heard a vane pump groan and be crazy noisy at idle? That's the fuel going thru the internal bypass and the poor old pump stuggling to deal with it, heating and aerating it.

 

So now you see why we made it that way and why I bash on about it. All the top line external pumps run them. They do it for a reason.

 

+1 on this ... I use the automotive fuel controller to slow the A1000 down, this stoped heating up the fuel big time and I can actually drive the car for hours with no issues, it needs a Tach signal to operate properly and works very well, it pulses the supply voltage to slow the pump down based on your RPM, if you use controllers that lower the voltage then it will heat the pump up. 

 

The pump is very cool, so is fuel and the buzzing is a lot lower, the MSD buzzes more than the fuel pump, before the controller the fuel pump would drown the msd buzzing.

 

idling for 10min before would stall the car and the fuel would boil? now no issues and the return fuel is actually not warm at all, and not a lot of volume, before it would hose out 

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