Panko's Mk1 Escort (Round 2)

[Panko 2,480]

Anyway...

today i attacked the struts. or in this case, the driver's side. 

stripped with the wire wheel...

then a couple coats of etch primer...

found the original part number. nice to know they are genuine and original struts

and the finished product. 4 coats of subframe black paint. Ive also bought all new zinc plated, high tensile Nylock nuts and bolts, to bolt the steering arm and backing plate back onto the strut leg. they should suit the fresh shiny black paint nicely  

[Valvebouncer 2,389]

It's kind of a good problem to have- running too cold that is. Most people with older cars would love to have this problem.

I'd be tempted to fit a metal temperature gauge to the back of the cylinder head to make sure what your seeing is correct. If it is, party on!!

[Panko 2,480]

5 minutes ago, Valvebouncer said:

It's kind of a good problem to have- running too cold that is. Most people with older cars would love to have this problem.

I'd be tempted to fit a metal temperature gauge to the back of the cylinder head to make sure what your seeing is correct. If it is, party on!!

haha yeah i know. when i rolled up to the RSOCV dyno day a couple weeks back and told them what was going on, most of the guys said the same, that they couldnt get their cars to run cold enough lol. 

I'm tempted to add in an analogue 2" temp gauge so i dont have to keep looking with the digital infrared gauge, meaning stopping and popping the bonnet. but according to the infrared gauge, so far its been right...too cold lol 

[Valvebouncer 2,389]

Well if you've done that it should be sweet.

Just remember, things usually run great right before they blow up.

[Thom 6,650]

Have you been testing your thermostats before you put them in? I find about 1 out of 10 is any good doesn't really matter the brand either

[Panko 2,480]

I've fitted 2 the same Thom. 1st one sure enough turned out to be faulty. wasnt closing properly. the second one was fine

[SPArKy_Dave 8,863]

There are only a couple of manufacturers left in the world, who make conventional thermostats now.

RobertShaw is a big one,
and WaxStat is another - they used to be British, but are now Indian owned I believe.
And there is one other chinese one, I can't think of.

All the likes of Tridon, Dayco, Stant and such, are just re-branded from the above.

[Outback Jack 6,352]

Its the thermostat.

People keep telling you... you just dont want to listen.

 

I ran escort mk1's for years.

Never had a problem like that.

 

If the motor cant get warm enough its not a radiator issue or an external temp issue.

Cars in Russia seem to be able to get to temp.. lot colder than there.

 

Water pump moves water... not the radiator and nothing goes past the thermostat until it opens.... and for that to happen has to be at Temp.

 

Basic 101 mechanics.

 

Maybe try a thermostat with no bypass.

Just because you replace with same one... doesnt mean it was right in the first place.

 

Jack.

 

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[deankxf 20,266]

3 hours ago, Outback Jack said:

Its the thermostat.

Maybe try a thermostat with no bypass.

Just because you replace with same one... doesnt mean it was right in the first place.

Jack.

i have had that issue with my cleveland back in the day.. wrong thermostat sold by repco/bursons/ etc... its the right one, the book says so.. no, mechanic changed it and it's fixed (cost $70 Vs $20 from memory.. that was an overheat issue though)

someone might have messed with something in the attempt to make it run colder when the radiator was stuffed.. 

[Panko 2,480]

4 hours ago, Outback Jack said:

Its the thermostat.

People keep telling you... you just dont want to listen.

 

I ran escort mk1's for years.

Never had a problem like that.

 

If the motor cant get warm enough its not a radiator issue or an external temp issue.

Cars in Russia seem to be able to get to temp.. lot colder than there.

 

Water pump moves water... not the radiator and nothing goes past the thermostat until it opens.... and for that to happen has to be at Temp.

 

Basic 101 mechanics.

 

Maybe try a thermostat with no bypass.

Just because you replace with same one... doesnt mean it was right in the first place.

 

Jack.

 

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Maybe I'm missing something, but every car must have some sort of bypass in the cooling system. Think about it, the water pump doesn't stop turning because the coolant isn't up to temp. it has to be able to circulate coolant through the engine still. 

I know some cars, have a bypass in the head, which will bypass the coolant until the thermostat can open, and thermostat will not have a bypass in that situation. If i ran a thermostat with no bypass, its only going to cause it to pressurise the system and cause a leak somewhere else. which i most certainly do not want to do, because the heater cores in the (at least Mk1s) Escorts is the weak component of the system. over pressurise that, and its likely to split. 
Anyway, the bypass in the Escort thermostats is tiny. I'm talking a little arrow that at its widest point is no more than 1mm wide, and its all of about 2mm in length. TINY. just enough to let coolant still circulate. 

Like i keep saying, it went from 1 extreme to another, from 2 days back to back, when i changed the radiator. ok sure, the one i pulled out was not in great condition, and sure I have gone to reconditioned unit. but hey, its not like the radiator is the thing that keeps the engine cooled or nothing, no its just here for looks, right? 

You can't compare Russia, or any european countries Jack. majority of cars on the roads over there are European, and pretty modern. Majority of modern European cars, or any car sold new in Europe, have pre heaters in the engine block to keep it warm when parked up in the garage at home. its a lead you plug in under a little cap in the front bumper. They have been doing this for years. a mate of mine had a Holden Vectra about 10 years ago, which was a few years old then, which had that feature in the car, here in Australia, but wasnt wired up being an Aus car so never worked. 
 

Before i put the first (and turned out to be faulty) thermostat in back in March, the one that was in there, which had been there for fuck knows how long, still had a bypass, and still worked just fine. 

What I am doing by covering the radiator, is not uncommon on oder cars. I got the idea from talking with guys from VicMini club. when we did the alpine tour up over Mt Hotham in April this year, there were a few guys running the exact same thing I have been running, for the Exact same reason. and yes they run them on and off during the colder months also. and think about a mini, their radiator is on the side, and still doesn't get warm enough. 

Trucks! quite regularly trucks will have covers that go over the outside the grille on the front to do the exact same thing. A mate of mine, his family has an interstate long haul trucking company, all the trucks carry on a radiator cover with them. 

Im not saying it happens to every car, obviously its not that common, but it does happen. 

 

[Panko 2,480]

got the driver's side strut leg finished for now. I can't add anything else to it until i pull the existing ones out. I'm pretty happy with the way they've come up. 

the last thing i want to do is replicate the factory blue and red painted identifying marks. but ill do them a little neater than original 

[Outback Jack 6,352]

Lol. Mate there are millions of thermostats without bypasses.

Test my theory... block bypass with a rivet..... bet it gets to temp.

If not thermostats open constant.

 

I bet the thermostat is wrong 100% because it cant stop water flow....

Either when done up it hits on thermostat body and opens it or something else... sure its not upside down.??...is it sealed around edge properly.??

 

 

No water flow.... car get hot... its a motor.... if it cant reach operating temp at idle before driving... not good.

Remember these cars were designed in England so stop going on about the enviroment.... its a non issue.

 

Did you ask for the same thermostat as you had??? Or did you ask for one for the correct year and model?

 

 

Jack.

 

 

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[Panko 2,480]

Jack, like i said above. every cooling system has to have some sort of bypass so it can continue to circulate. it can't just build up pressure one side of the thermostat and have nothing on the other side. 

as for buying the thermostat. I only buy parts from either Yesterford, who has been dealing with English Fords and is the only English ford specialist in victoria, for over 30 years, or from a couple of suppliers in the UK. so yes it is the correct thermostat. 

considering a lot of the guys in the RSOCV run the same thermostat I am running, and haven't had an issue, still tells me its not just down to the thermostat. 

so its not the environment? yet the guys in the minis who have the same issue, a car that is also designed and mass produced in the UK, are all running the wrong thermostats, hey?  

[Outback Jack 6,352]

Wtf is the pressure relief on the radiator cap for then?

So things dont over pressure.

 

Thermostat.... no bypass...

Works just fine... they did all thru time until you mentioned it doesnt....

 

 

I just wont waste me time mate.

 

 

 

Jack.

 

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[Panko 2,480]

53 minutes ago, Outback Jack said:

Wtf is the pressure relief on the radiator cap for then?

So things dont over pressure.

 

Thermostat.... no bypass...

Works just fine... they did all thru time until you mentioned it doesnt....

 

 

I just wont waste me time mate.

 

 

 

Jack.

 

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please do stop wasting both our times, and ripping into me about my car. just another keyboard warrior? 

i never said thermostats without bypasses didnt exist, did i? 
what I did say is many cars that dont have bypasses in the thermostat, do have a small bypass channel in the head. 

I dont get why you have turned this into such an issue. 

going back to your comment earlier about being engineered for UK conditions. True, but when sent to australia, they run larger radiators...did you know that? 

Melbourne gets pretty cold, probably not far off as cold as the UK some days during winter. so run the car with a more efficient radiator, in just as cold conditions, of course its going to run cold. 
I have replaced everything to the factory correct spec parts. 
I have never owned the car in winter before, so who knows if its ever run cold like this in the past. maybe I'm the first one to pick up on it. 
By running that cover over the radiator, as tested it, it is raising the temp of the coolant coming from the radiator between 5 and 10 degrees, and lifting the engine coolant temp by the same. replicating similar temps to what it would be in the warmer months, which I do know runs perfectly fine at. 

may i remind you of my earlier comment about how I personally noticed a difference the moment i fitted the current radiator, with no change in thermostat. 

I will continue to try things as i see fit, but maybe see the evidence, and think about WTF I have tried on the car, and maybe understand why i might be a tad reluctant to blame it just on the thermostat. 

Yes I admit it has had me stumped, but when i know of other makes and models of cars that have the same issue in winter, maybe they might know what they are talking about when i ask them the right questions. 

[SPArKy_Dave 8,863]

On this cooling issue -

Here's a NOS Genuine Ford waterpump, for Escorts -
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MK1-MK2-RS2000-ESCORT-GENUINE-FORD-NOS-WATER-PUMP-ASSY-/222195987922?epid=1478996246&hash=item33bbe9b5d2:g:0cwAAOSw4s9Xk1FD

And here is a NOS Escort thermostat -
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MK1-MK2-MK3-CORTINA-ESCORT-CAPRI-ANGLIA-GENUINE-FORD-NOS-THERMOSTAT-ASSY-/322673100780?hash=item4b20d0c7ec:g:KrEAAOSwNqtZnYSg

The pics answers some questions....

We can see that like x-series, Escort water pumps have a built in bypass.
The NOS thermostat also shows that like x-series - they're rated at 88 Degrees, and have a small air bleed jiggle pin, but nothing else.

What does the current thermostat look like?
If markedly different to the NOS one, is it possible that the prior owner installed a different type, in an attempt to fix the previous overheating issue?

 

[Panko 2,480]

thats the thermostat i pulled out of the car months ago. Identical to the 2 i have fitted since. That little circle, thats the bypass i was talking about. It is tiny. 

That water pump is identical to whats in the car dave. 

And its not a bypass on the pump, thats the feed that goes straight to the heater core, then there is a return that goes back through an elbow in the intake manifold and into the head and engine block from there, then out through the thermostat back to radiator.  

[SPArKy_Dave 8,863]

4 hours ago, Panko said:

And its not a bypass on the pump, thats the feed that goes straight to the heater core, then there is a return that goes back through an elbow in the intake manifold and into the head and engine block from there, then out through the thermostat back to radiator.  

The bypass, should be that little passage adjacent to the bolt hole, on the water pump.

[Panko 2,480]

Well i cant see that, being on the bottom of the pump. 

So for shits and gigs, because its raining and cant paint my other strut, i changed the thermostat again, to a Tridon one this time. Same temp range, difference being the little pin in the ring around the outside, rather than the notch in the diaphragm. And, i can safely say it has made no difference. At idle for around 20 minutes, it got to around 70 degrees, after taking it for a short drive, it got to 77-80 degrees, give or take a few to allow for discrepancy with the infrared gauge. 

From here, i think my next move is to compare with my spare head as to whether this one is corroded just enough to be letting coolant passed, and perhaps fit a second temp probe and analogue gauge. 

[SPArKy_Dave 8,863]

If you have the time, maybe try boiling each of the spare thermostats in a pot of water on the stove, (one at a time)
with a probe type thermometer in the water.

I'm intrigued to know what temp they start to open at.

 

[Panko 2,480]

been there and done that dave. working correctly 

[SPArKy_Dave 8,863]

Just now, Panko said:

been there and done that dave. working correctly 

What were the actual opening temps like, vs their stamped ratings?

[Panko 2,480]

working correctly. both of them. one of them is faulty now because something jammed it open slightly. but the one i pulled out today is perfectly fine. 

[Panko 2,480]

Front suspension is finished. but not aligned yet. its going for its alignment on saturday morning  I can't wait to drive it when its all aligned. should handle much much better. 

existing strut out and in bits. just need the spring had and rubber cover/bump stops for the new struts. 

the height difference in the springs. new springs on the right  i was beginning to think the car was going to be slammed  

Complete strut ready to go in...well at least i thought  

more evidence of how poorly these cars were built  yep, the 3 holes in the strut tower were not 100% correct. and the original strut tops didnt line up with the new tops. could even see the holes and removable threads in the original strut tops were not symmetrical, meaning if i tried to fit my stock strut tops to another car, there is a good chance they would not fit lol   

so after getting the tops to fit to the car, the driver's side was in. once i knew what i was doing and what i was up for, the passenger side, with the help of dad, was done, and car back on its wheels and driving with brakes bled and all, by dinner time tuesday  

the finished product from the engine bay. look a little tidier than the factory tops in my opinion. 

Now for the alignment issue. Because I'm already running an adjustable Kmac sway bar before rebuilding the struts, to correct caster, the front wheels were always sitting a long way forward in the wheel arches, and caused clearance issues with the front valance, which i carefully massaged to get it out the way. 
I have the car booked in on saturday morning to get the front end aligned. At first, Peter, the guy i use, said yep no worries, won't take long. but then i added the fact I have added components to allow the whole front end to be dialled in and adjusted, he asked me to book it in saturday morning instead haha. I know peter owns some classic 50s and 70s Renaults, both stock restored and modified so I know he will do a good job. 
ANYWAY, because the new tops have both camber and caster adjustment, I wanted to start with the control arms in a neutral position, forward and back, as much as possible. So for now I have wound the arms back as far as they will go on the adjustable sway bar, which looks good now with the wheels sitting in the middle of the arches. so i will see what happens on saturday as to how much Peter needs to drag the arms forward again. 

 

Before.

After. (Today in fact) 
Now the car is sitting pretty much exactly the same height as it did before, because the front suspension setup I'm using adds about an inch to the ride height, hence the new springs being an inch lower than what i had. BUT, on paper, and doing some measuring, the car should in actual fact sit about 10mm lower than it previously did up front. keeping in mind the alignment is miles out, and i haven't actually driven it any further than the end of my street, means that by the time the alignment is sorted, and the springs settle/sag a little, it should drop the front ride height a touch. 

 

[deankxf 20,266]

i meant to ask pedders how far My tape measure alignment was out(or not?) forgot all about it, meh. should be good, only thing adjustable really is toe anyway