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Panko

Panko's Mk1 Escort (Round 2)

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On 8/15/2019 at 10:00 PM, Fingers said:

Even 120Y's can cruise at 110

Cruise? That would be nearly topped out lol. 

 

The Escorts top is about 145km/h 

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Ok my handling is up there, but very modified to make it handle. 

 

Brakes though are stock. They work fine, but when I was coming down the back of Mt Beauty in April, I ran out of brakes at the bottom of the road lol. Thankfully there was no cars coming so i could just roll through the T intersection 

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A 120Y would never have kept up with you.

A MK1 Escort out handles and out brakes a 120Y stock for stock.

Your modified suspension may have contributed to you running out of brakes as your corner speeds would have been quicker.

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15 hours ago, Fingers said:

A 120Y would never have kept up with you.

A MK1 Escort out handles and out brakes a 120Y stock for stock.

Your modified suspension may have contributed to you running out of brakes as your corner speeds would have been quicker.

Thats a fair point. 

I forget how quick I can corner in it. probably faster than the tyres can with stand hehe. 

 

For the first time, I felt the weight transfer in it going round a round about really quickly, and had to use the throttle to steer it as the back started to come round on me lol whoops. 

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So I bit the bullet and decided to replace the carby at last with a brand new 32/36 DGV. 

 

mZV0UZY.jpg

 

interesting to see the clean and dirty sides of the intake 

 

rJmyCVK.jpg

 

all installed, using stock full length cable, with some special engineering on the big washers on either side of the throttle bracket. stock rocker cover back on. 

 

seZ2JT8.jpg?1

 

because this a factory manual choke carby, it works 10000000000000 x better than my converted manual choke carby, that used to be auto choke. 

 

iV227EV.jpg

 

 

I got it running and driving, but couldnt use full throttle. would completely bog down and just die under load. So tonight, i pulled the top off carby to see why.... 

 

and this is what i found. yep, brand new weber, which i picked up myself from weber performance, and this is what i find. secondary main jet out, primary main jet was lose, just sitting in. 

put them back, and got the car going and driving way way better, but still not 100%. im guessing its over jetted for the 1300. 

 

7ew3Qp0.jpg

 

this is the jetting comparison. 

 

should make sense hopefully. the Renault Carby is what ive been running. 

 

AaoozbA.png

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That's a shocka.. and 140 refers to a jet size of 1.4mm? That's a huge jump from 1.25. It's the equivalent of going from 62 to 78 on a Holley if my rough calcs are right

Sent from my CPH1903 using Tapatalk

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1 minute ago, gerg said:

That's a shocka.. and 140 refers to a jet size of 1.4mm? That's a huge jump from 1.25. It's the equivalent of going from 62 to 78 on a Holley if my rough calcs are right

Sent from my CPH1903 using Tapatalk
 

yeah, i should add i also had to put the choke back together. the first time i pulled the choke lever the choke setup sprung apart. the retaining pin dissappeared lol. so ill be emailing weber australia with pics and just giving them a heads up. 

 

yes you're correct. so yes its a big jump. 

 

Im hoping i can get away with dropping the main jet size down to the 125s, and the rest of the jets and sizes are close enough for the car to run happier. 

at the end of the day, the other jets are pretty close to what ive been running. 

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2 minutes ago, gerg said:

That's a shocka.. and 140 refers to a jet size of 1.4mm? That's a huge jump from 1.25. It's the equivalent of going from 62 to 78 on a Holley if my rough calcs are right

Sent from my CPH1903 using Tapatalk
 

yeah i have 140 primary and 150 secondary in the same carby on a mild 2 litre in the gemini. so i suspect they'd be way rich.. not as rich as a jet removed though..

 

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1 minute ago, deankdx said:

yeah i have 140 primary and 150 secondary in the same carby on a mild 2 litre in the gemini. so i suspect they'd be way rich.. not as rich as a jet removed though..

 

 

haha imagine an engine that would need so much fuel it would run without main jets haha. 

 

I think ill try changing to the 125s tomorrow and go from there. 

ill check base timing, see if i can squeeze some more out of it. the engine runs cold, so maybe advancing it more might get it running at normal temp haha 

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Me thinks 140 on the primary when it should be 125 is still too fat. That's like too much jet on a Holley by 6 sizes. Small engine too, so is amplified. Do you have any other carbies to raid for their jets? Can you swap in a bigger air correction jet to compensate?

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1 minute ago, gerg said:

Me thinks 140 on the primary when it should be 125 is still too fat. That's like too much jet on a Holley by 6 sizes. Small engine too, so is amplified. Do you have any other carbies to raid for their jets? Can you swap in a bigger air correction jet to compensate?

Sent from my CPH1903 using Tapatalk
 

yeah i have the Renault carby, which ive been running. thats the one with the 125s. 

 

I also have 4 other twin choke carbys. 3 webers, which consist of a rebuilt 32/36, a 32/36 in bits, an actual 1300GT carby (i think) and a Holley licensed copy of a weber 1300GT carby. the last two i mentioned have been sitting for F knows how long. the holley carby, is extremely rare. i asked weber about them, and he said he hasnt seen one in over 20 years. 

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49 minutes ago, Panko said:

 

haha imagine an engine that would need so much fuel it would run without main jets haha. 

 

I think ill try changing to the 125s tomorrow and go from there. 

ill check base timing, see if i can squeeze some more out of it. the engine runs cold, so maybe advancing it more might get it running at normal temp haha 

E85 might need more fuel than no jet at all. .

Pretty sure I recall seeing a post where someone modded a Gemini carby forE85 and basically had no jet in the secondary. 

I actually think a Gemini carby would be better for this engine. ..vacuum secondary with a very small primary. And electric choke. Would need mods to install though 

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well just when i thought things were going well, they take a turn for the worse lol :( 

 

i got the new carby running pretty good by playing around with jets etc today. 

 

this is what I ended up with 

Main Jet: 135/125

Idle Jet: 55/50

Air comp: 160/160

Emulsion Tube: F6/F6

Aux Venturi: 3.5/3.5

Pump Jet: 50

 

I raided my spare carbies for parts. 

 

yg7fnbX.jpg

 

By this stage, its running smooth, pulling nicely, very little if at all hesitation or fouling. 

 

I had Sparky Dave round to help setting the timing on it, and this is where it all went bad :( 

 

We hooked up his vac gauge, and immediately it showed the timing being retarded, even though on the timing light it was showing advanced. 

His timing light allows you to wind back the light to figure out how much advance etc the engine is running. 

So we did that, and nothing made sense that the timing light was telling us the engine was running 48 degrees advance, WTF? 

So, we set cylinder 1 to TDC by turning the engine over by hand, and checking it with something in the spark plug hole, then reset the dizzy back to 0 timing. tried to run the car, nothing. just backfired and carried on until it blew some nice flames back out the carby. I managed to get the car to run just long enough for Dave to get the timing light on, and dial it back to tell how far it was retarded...about 10-12 degrees. 

 

So, I now have to pull the timing cover off, because its evident that the timing gear is out of line, meaning the cam timing is retarded by about 10 degrees. 

 

This explains, everything. 

Explains the bad fuel economy, the fact it never runs at normal operating temp, always colder, why my compression always seemed low on comp tests because valves wouldnt be closing properly on compression cycle, why the low down torque wasnt existent. 

feel like such a twat not picking this up long ago, but then again i wasnt the one who put this engine in the car. 

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don't be so sure it's out..
not without checking Valve timing events in the TDC range.

true Top Dead Center is found by using a piston stop, and winding the engine over both directions with a degree wheel, then choosing the middle of the "left out"(stopped area) 

@BGDAV F100 is an asshole of a thing in this way, timing light reads WRONG something stupid.. no explanation has been found yet(we timed it dot to dot on the timing chain, or if we didn't it already was there and running fine there) we did have the timing cover off it due to pitting/leaks

 

48deg total advance sounds ridonculous though.. 35 is possible i'd expect. @gerg might like to throw his 2 bobs worth in.. 

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1 hour ago, deankdx said:

don't be so sure it's out..
not without checking Valve timing events in the TDC range.

 

 

something sure is...

removing the rocker cover was the next step, but ran out of time.

 

The theory is, the cam/crank relationship, is out of sync.

I reckoned the cam was advanced,

 

Aaron reckons it's most likely retarded a tooth or two.

 

I'm unfamiliar with Escort engines, and have no idea how many teeth the cam/crank cogs have,

to even begin to estimate how many degree's per tooth.

 

It was late, and I was too tired to think straight... even drawing a diagram, didn't really help.

 

 

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1 hour ago, SPArKy_Dave said:

 

something sure is...

removing the rocker cover was the next step, but ran out of time.

 

The theory is, the cam/crank relationship, is out of sync.

I reckoned the cam was advanced,

 

Aaron reckons it's most likely retarded a tooth or two.

 

I'm unfamiliar with Escort engines, and have no idea how many teeth the cam/crank cogs have,

to even begin to estimate how many degree's per tooth.

 

It was late, and I was too tired to think straight... even drawing a diagram, didn't really help.

 

 

cam has  Twice as Many Teeth as the crank...thats all i Know :)

awaits other explanations 

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If it runs on 48 deg, that sounds like way too much, especially on a small engine. I'm gathering that you've already verified TDC on the balancer (ie hasn't slipped) so that your timing reading is correct.

One way to verify is to get it idling at whatever timing it likes (moving the dizzy either way drops rpm) and check what that timing is. If it's not in the ballpark, something's wrong.

I agree that cam timing is the next thing to check, but that doesn't affect ignition timing.

Sent from my CPH1903 using Tapatalk

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I had dad on the tools today, which is a rarity. for a couple reasons. A: because we don't work together without arguing something shocking, and B: he is retired and can be quite stubborn and lazy at times, but he was a great help today, for once. and we didnt argue, although he still was getting on my nerves haha. 

 

1KLmlUF.jpg

 

anyway, i went about pulling the timing gear off and checking it all out. what conclusion did we come to? 
That we are bloody confused, but its fixed. 

 

vNrwtQh.jpg

 

So, let me try explain this. 

Most cars, the timing gear is set and aligned off cylinder 1 at TDC, compression cycle. well, to be confusing, this is not possible on the Escort. The camshaft and crankshaft gears can only go on in 1 position, but the relationship (timing) between them can be wrong. 

SO, with cylinder 1 @ TDC compression cycle, it appeared that the timing was 180 degrees out. the timing marks on the gears were facing away from each other. With the timing marks aligned, as per the workshop manual instructions, cylinder 4 is @ TDC compression, and cylinder 1 @ TDC, exhaust cycle (I cant remember now which valve was opening on cylinder 1).

Given this discovery, we were super confused about the timing. what we stupidly didn't do, was actually check if the timing marks were 100% lined up before we pulled the chain off and the cam gear off. But, I suspect it was out by a tooth or maybe two. 

 

We put it all back together, with the timing gear lined up correctly, put the engine back together and fired it up. AND, it ran straight away. i chucked my timing light across it, and I was able to dial the timing in to about 12 degrees BTDC, as base timing, although running a little rough, so advanced it just a touch, so the timing mark is just above the max timing scale (12 degrees). im guessing its sitting at 14-16 degrees BTDC as base timing, and its idling great and seems pretty smooth, which it was not doing yesterday when we tried to dial it back to factory timing specs (10 degrees +/- 2 degrees) 

 

BUT now, (always a but) my jetting on the carby feels off again :( so ill have to give that a going over again. at least it seems im getting somewhere with it though. 

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When thecam timing is 180deg out..you probably just needed to rotate the harmonic ballancer one more revolution.  @gerg may understand what i am thinking? Bedtime for me now...got.the tired so could be wrong 

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Hmm 

regardless, it wasnt possible to have the cam gear in the position to align with the crank gear, and have both valves on cylinder 1 closed. 
 

we did exactly that though. We rotated the crank a full revolution while the chain was off. 
 

i dont know. Maybe its still all wrong haha. But its running better than it was yesterday  i think lol 

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When thecam timing is 180deg out..you probably just needed to rotate the harmonic ballancer one more revolution.  [mention=244]gerg[/mention] may understand what i am thinking? Bedtime for me now...got.the tired so could be wrong 

Yep you're right Deano. 180 out on the cam gear is 360 out on the crank, which means you just wind the crank over a turn to line up the dots. Although trying to guess where the dots "should" be with one of them on the opposite side of the gear is pretty impossible.

 

Panko if what you did made all the difference, then yeah I'd say it was out. If you changed nothing else, that has to be it.

 

Re: jetting... It may well be that now that you have the engine breathing properly, the carby is seeing more draw of air and therefore more ability to draw fuel out of the boosters (ie better vacuum signal). That might mean that jetting is playing a bigger part than before, where poor breathing was perhaps compensating for the bigger jets.

 

Sent from my CPH1903 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

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