Falcon XC MSD Ignition Help

[Harrison Kotrolos 29]

Hey all,

 

So I have wired my entire car and everything is work, within the next few days I'll be making my spark leads and doing the timing and hoping all goes well and the car starts.

 

But first I need verification of my build, I have a MSD 6AL-2 PROGRAMMABLE; I need to stress its the programmable box, as people get confused and tell me I need the dizzy module and what not. So I have the box wired up, and a MSD Blaster SS Coil Pack, I then have an XF electronic dizzy as shown in the pictures, I'm running it with no module as the Programmable box has a separate wire and setting for Electronic dizzies.

 

I'll tell you how I have done it, so I have wired the wires from the box into the dizzy as the manual said, so there is a 12V wire going to the PWR plug of the dizzy, then there is a GRD wire coming from the dizzy, and then there is the WHITE/BLUE wire going the PIP signal wire of the dizzy, I then have the 12V ignition to the MSD and all the earthing done.

 

So I turn the key to START, and the MSD boots up and I can read it off the computer so its all working, the settings up have been done and once I have the spark leads done up, I should be good to go.

 

I just want you guys to confirm this wiring is correct, and it will work, I don't want to be chasing my tail here.

 

Also, if you guys can confirm the order of the PINS internally on the dizzy are as follows, GRND, PWR, PIP (so that's looking up at the dizzy left to right)

 

Will post pictures once photobucket is back up and running

 

Thanks everyone.

 

 

 

 

[gerg 10,871]

Sounds like it might work, but I remember the instructions saying specifically that the supply should be wired directly to battery (both positive and negative) and fused accordingly as there's a decent amount of current involved. It could be enough to overload the ignition circuit and pop the fuse. Also.they want to see a proper 12 volts at the MSD, not whatever's left after going through all the wires and switches, etc.

 

As for the wiring to the dizzy, I can't comment as mine is a magnetic type which was very straightforward. Others have done what you're doing with success so one might chime in with an answer.

[Harrison Kotrolos 29]

Sounds like it might work, but I remember the instructions saying specifically that the supply should be wired directly to battery (both positive and negative) and fused accordingly as there's a decent amount of current involved. It could be enough to overload the ignition circuit and pop the fuse. Also.they want to see a proper 12 volts at the MSD, not whatever's left after going through all the wires and switches, etc.

 

As for the wiring to the dizzy, I can't comment as mine is a magnetic type which was very straightforward. Others have done what you're doing with success so one might chime in with an answer.

 

Which supply are you talking about??

 

So I got the big red wire and big black wire hooked directly to the positive and negative terminal of the battery respectively.

 

I then have the switch 12V wire running to the dizzy and to the MSD small red wire.

 

The WHITE/BLUE wire connects to the dizzy PIP signal wire, and then I have grounded the dizzy to the chassis ground.

 

Just went through the manual again, there is nothing about putting fuses in the loom :/

 

If you could shine some light on what you mean by fused correctly, because I don't want to blow the box or something, I just followed the manual.

 

Cheers

[gerg 10,871]

Sorry didn't know you already took supply from the battery. You must fuse that one at 10 or 15A at least, but the rest is ok as is. The 12v wire from the dizzy is just a trigger to tell the MSD to turn on, but won't hurt to fuse that with a 2A wherever you connect it, in case of a short from that point on.

 

That's just how I did mine, as I'd not be comfortable running a constantly live supply wire in an engine bay that had no fuse protection.

[Harrison Kotrolos 29]

Sorry didn't know you already took supply from the battery. You must fuse that one at 10 or 15A at least, but the rest is ok as is. The 12v wire from the dizzy is just a trigger to tell the MSD to turn on, but won't hurt to fuse that with a 2A wherever you connect it, in case of a short from that point on.

 

Okay, So which wire should I be fusing??

 

Sorry for my ignorance, I'm just super confused, because MSD never said anything about running some fuses, especially on the actual supply wires, its just says hook everything up.

 

And Yeah okay, I have a 12V wire which is from the old ignition, I've simply split that, and it runs to the MSD and to the dizzy, pretty much how the diagram in the manual said so.

 

I'm uploading photos of the diagram I'm following and the wire I have wired it up:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay so that's the MSD box, my wiring loom, and the three plugs that go into the dizzy

[gerg 10,871]

You should fuse the one coming from the battery. I thought it was pretty shithouse for MSD not to supply or even recommend a fuse from the battery. Mine runs a 10A from memory, just an inline blade holder with spade terminals.

 

You know about distributor phasing and how to set timing, etc?

[Harrison Kotrolos 29]

Okay so basically run a 10A fuse inline with the fat red wire from the battery positive?? I'm assuming this is to reduce blowing the MSD box in case of a short??

 

And just going from memory, distributor phasing is how on point the rotor is with the cap, so basically if it is sparking when it is perfectly inline rather when then earlier or later, and this is to reduce the chance of the spark jumping to an earth or another point??

 

Correct me if I am wrong on this.

 

But in regard to distributor phasing, got any tips for a rookie like myself?? Or any procedures I should take??

 

And with timing, I was going to set the dizzy to either 0degress, or advance it 2degrees, and then I was going to lock it down and advance the timing through the MSD, this is a 250 X-flow from a Falcon XC sedan, its running 350 Holley, extractors, stock cam (got new cam, just want to get ignition working), its converted to Unleaded and it has a comp of around low 10s:1.

 

So how much advance would you recommend on the timing?? also correct me if I am approaching the timing wrong.

 

Also, How about spark plug gap size?? MSD recommends a gap of 0.050 for around that comp

 

Thanks

[judgetread 757]

It works the other way around, set your dizzy to max advance then you remove timing through the 6al programmable. Weird but Im sure thats how it works with that box

[wagoon 2,429]

I have just wired my xe over christmas with msd 6al2. I have the same instructions as you and it does not say anything regarding a fuse. I also got on here and asked the fuse question and went the way Greg suggested, I used a blade type fuse in either a 10 or 15AMP capacity. I then fused the trigger wire going to the dizzy with a 2.5AMP fuse as that's what I had.

 

Judgetread has it right with the way to set the timing. I like to think of the 6al2 programmable as a retard box, you set your dizzy to highest timing you want then use the msd to pull timing out.

[gerg 10,871]

Agree with all answers given, but I'll add that ANY ignition that uses an electronic spark curve can only ever retard from whatever signal it gets, as a computer cannot predict when a spark will need to happen beforehand (ie before it sees a trigger).

 

Yes Harry you're spot-on, you need to give yourself more credit for what you already understand.

 

You fuse to protect the conductor. It stops your car from burning to the ground if a wire rubs through. If your MSD box has an internal short, then a fuse might blow but again this only protects the conductor. I'm afraid if it's gone that far, there's no saving the box.

 

Phasing can be a tricky one as it depends on a few factors:

 

* Range of timing you require

 

* Rotor tip design

 

* Distance between terminals on your dizzy cap

 

* Method of attachment of your trigger wheel to the dizzy shaft

 

You will need to sacrifice a dizzy cap and drill a large hole next to #1 terminal where the rotor tip passes it. Run the engine and observe with a timing light whereabouts on the tip the spark occurs. If it has to jump any further than it normally does, you need to either modify the tip by soldering on a "wing" so that the whole range of spark is covered, or somehow advance the trigger wheel so that the spark jumps at the right rotor position. I seem to remember that your dizzy already has 30 deg of advance built into it so you should be right (anyone confirm?). People even run them straight-timed on more racey engines (ie just through an old 6AL).

 

I run an MSD billet clone so it was easy to advance the trigger wheel as it is on a fine spline to the shaft. I just pushed it off and advanced the wheel a couple of splines. My rotor tip also needed extending so I just hammered a bit of brazing rod flat and soldered it to the end, filed to shape. I determined all this by viewing the spark through the hole in the cap that I mentioned.

 

Your 6AL-2 programmable has some good functions that you should take advantage of. You really need to hook up the "boost retard" function to get good street manners and efficiency. Just go to any wreckers and get a GM map sensor and make sure you get the plug and some wiring with it. Splice it to the MSD loom (check colours as they're a bit screwy) and you've got yourself vac advance for about 15 bucks. The MSD plug looks identical to the one on the map sensor, but they changed the little lugs on them just to be a pain in the arse. I think the pin layouts are the same. Either that or get yourself an MSD map sensor for about 90 bucks.

 

I use the step retard function on a hot day when I can hear some detonation happening. I've set it to take out an extra 6 deg when I flick the a/c switch (a/c no longer fitted).

 

Any issues with programming let us know. We've been there and done it, and made all the mistakes.

[Outback Jack 6,352]

Yeah gerg I can confirm MSD 6al2 on crossy with est dizzy is fine with no phasing at 30 degree timing at the dizzy and running a curve with a start at 15 degrees retard from the motors timing of 30 degrees.

 

Was trying to find something on the one I put in ash xf's ute.

Timing curve was trickiest bit ( thanks again Ando76 ) and dont forget to set the box to 6 cylinder.... factory default is 8.

Ash's doesn't run a map sensor or anything.

Runs rich but thats because it's a 600 holley on a pretty mild crossy. Lol.

Goes like a shower of shit.

 

Jack.

 

 

 

Sent from my GT-S7583T using Tapatalk

[Harrison Kotrolos 29]

Thankyou all for helping me with all this, all your advice is awesome and appreciated.

 

Tomorrow is the big day, I got the engine cranking again today, and all the wiring is working perfectly. But tomorrow is the day of setting TDC of piston NO.1 and putting the dizzy in and seeing if i get spark.

 

Now I've written heaps of notes down from all your comments and help, but I have a few more questions.

 

So my vehicle of mass awesomness is a Falcon XC, and has the first xflow in it, now in the original wiring you have the a single wire from the starter motor to the positive side of the coil pack, I am assuming i don't need this anymore and that this wire was a simple activator or something for the original points ignition.

 

Okay, so first thing up is basically getting TDC on chamber NO.1, and then I'll set the dizzy in, because of the height of the dizzy, i got to take the manifold off and put it in, then put the manifold back on because its so tall.

 

So if all goes well and my wiring is done correctly, what should happen is, I start cranking the engine, of course I will have a timing light hooked up, and I'll be advance the timing accordingly.

 

How much advance should I begin with?? Its a stock cam, with a 350 Holley and extractors, unleaded conversion and running with 10ish:1 compression with a little portflowing

 

If all goes well I should be getting a nice flashing timing light and be able to set my initial timing.

 

TWO EVENTS:

 

1: I get no flashing, can you guys kinda guide me on how I should approach this issue and how I should test things and cancel things out??

 

I will have my computer hooked up to the MSD so if there are any settings in there I can check let me know 

 

I will then of course go through all the wiring, making sure the MSD has 12V, and that power is going to the coil, and that there is 12V going to the dizzy as well

 

2: In the event that it is flashing and I can set my timing, of courser I'll set my timing as advance as I can go, now knowing you use the MSD to retard the timing,

 

So the car was tuned and dyno with the old points ignition, and peak torque was hit at around 2000rpm, now it could be a little less, because the points ignition could handle load pressure

 

So if my thinking is correct, should I be retarding the timing at this point and then advancing it as the rpm gets higher??

 

Like I imagine it as the piston is travelling slower at that point, therefore I can set the timing at less advance, and as the piston and compression stroke speed up and become faster, I need to advance the timing in order to stay ahead of it.

 

Correct me if I am wrong here.

 

I'll keep you all updated with how its going and progress, just really hoping tomorrow I get spark straight away and I'm not chasing this little gremlin around.

 

Thankyou All,

Harry

[MNTL.XD 3,831]

So do we get to see a pic of this XC??

[gerg 10,871]

Ok where to start....

 

100% get rid of that extra wire from the starter. It's a throwback to the days of points and ballast resistors and 9V coils and that rubbish. Your MSD is a capacitor discharge ignition, meaning your coil is a standalone item that only the MSD is hooked up to. Some voltages in the coil supply can spike to 600v, not good for any electrics especially tachos, which is why they give you a tacho output from the MSD box.

 

You can check for spark before you crank the engine. Put the dizzy in to roughly where you want it, say 30 deg btdc #1 (of course put the engine on compression?#1).

 

Now ignition on (don't crank), get the coil HV lead and plug it into the coil. Shove a spark plug in the other end and rest it on a good earth. Rotate dizzy back and forth and watch for spark on the plug. It won't sound like a normal spark "click" but more like a very short "beep". This is the MSD output of 6 sparks, at a high frequency. Please, I warn you DON'T FUCKING TOUCH IT. It really, really hurts.

 

Yes you're getting the basic concept of rpm advance. At a certain load, fuel and air burn at a pretty constant rate, so you have to start the fire earlier each stroke as rpm increases.

 

I should think 10 deg at idle would be reasonable to get you running, which would show as 20 deg retard on your graph if you started with 30 at the dizzy. Probably start ramping up at around 1800 then at 3000 you can flatten it out. You can then start adding extra dots to trim the curve to what you need, which takes time.

 

If it's a bit hard to start when cranking, you can retard it right back but keep in mind the phasing issue I mentioned. It showed up the most when starting when I was setting mine up, kept smacking itself in the face from crossfiring.

 

Happy tuning!

[Harrison Kotrolos 29]

IT WORKS, I don't think I have had so much luck with this project, for the first time ever this worked first go no hickups.

 

Okay I'll run through what we did and how it all went.

 

So first off the dizzy is really freaking tall so I have to pull the manifold off to install it, of course I wanted to make sure all the wiring was working before I did that, because I didn't want to pull the dizzy in and out. Anyway, following gerg's advice, I did the spark test.

 

HOLY COW, the spark was huge, mind you the spark plug gap was still standard, but we had the spark plug hanging next to earth, and it was like a mini sun of sparks, actualluy looked like someone was welding. Of course I'm super excited now, we have spark and the dizzy and all is working.

 

I removed the spark plug for NO.1 piston and plugged her up with a piece of toilet paper and cranked her till she popped, and perfectly the crank lined up with TDC markings. Next i removed the manifold bolts and lifted it slightly, I then got a pair of helping hands to lower the dizzy into its position and then we bolted the manifold lightly with two bolts back on.

 

Okay this is the part where I got confused with the programming and forgot the MSD retards.

 

Next we got a timing light and set the dizzy to 0 degress, all was working, we had spark and all, of course though my battery which had sat for 5 months went flat so we stole one from a BMW hehehehe

 

Then began the long journey of making spark leads, I got my hands on some MSD 8.5mm Super conductor spark leads, and we routed them nicely cut them and crimped them all up, looks really neat and really solid spark leads.

 

That took us about an hour or so, and the results are awesome.

 

We then proceeded with tightening the manifold back up and the exhaust and plugging all the vacuum lines back in, put the alternator belt back on and double checked everything.

 

So once we plugged everything up installed the missing spark plug we hooked her up to the computer and started cranking, and straight away there was suddenly no spark, now of course I started scratching my head, and was thinking to myself, how can there suddenly be no spark, I thought we might of broken something or blown something. After about 15mins or thinking and being puzzled, we realised I forgot to plug the dizzy back in because I had unplugged it to tighten the manifold.

 

Anyway, here came the big moment, BAM, she started with one click, and did I get goosebumps, it started so nicely and was running so well, I didn't think such an old engine that was carby could start so easily and well. So she is puttering away and we double check timing and we are all happy, now this is were I got confused, so I was looking at the graph on the MSD, and I forgot that it retards, and because on the graph is just says "800rpm, 8.8degrees" I thought it advanced it, I guess the lack of a 'minus' sign to give indication that it retards from the original advance you put on the dizzy really confused me.

 

Not knowing my mistake I made a quick graph with 5degrees at idle and so on, of course that was 5 degrees of RETARD, and we went to start here up, but amazingly BAM, started straight away, and with no hiccup, and what was even more amazing, it was idiling at 400rpm, HOW?? this cranks at 200rpm, it was just amazing, such a massive engine idiling that low.

 

Anyway, this is where I am at, I finally realised my mistake and we reset the dizzy at about 15degrees of advance and I made a curve to retard it along the rpm range. After that we called it a day and packed up, now it leaves me with a few questions.

 

Does anyone have a graph file they could email or send to me, something to start me up, even something close to the original graph for this dizzy or engine???

 

Also, is there anyway of uploading videos?? Or should I upload it to YouTube and share the link??

 

And finallyyy, You will all be seeing the car soon, I think I'll start a forum for it, show you guys the entire build, it has been over 5 years of building this car, and I've learn't some useful things that I will talk about and mention in the forum and people can read and hopefully get some pointers or interesting facts.

 

Thankyou all for helping me with this, was many sleepless nights wondering if this would work or if I was going to be chasing the electrical gremlin.

[gerg 10,871]

A big engine will idle more slowly than a small one, simple physics. Even with that in mind, 400 rpm is very low. Simple explanation: you set your dizzy to zero on the crank so it's actually firing 8.8 degrees after top dead... Very retarded.

 

15 degrees is an ok start but really you should take advantage of the range of adjustment and go to 30. It will probably go like a dog at 15.

 

You'll probably find that it will start on 15 no probs.

 

And you will also need to allow for the map sensor you'll be installing (no shut up, you are doing it) and that will make it a really sweet cruiser.

 

The MSD lets you run a bit leaner because the mixture gets 6 sparks instead of one, and gives a nice smooth idle too.

 

Sorry all my saved curves went with my laptop when it Chernobyled itself.

[Outback Jack 6,352]

Nice work mate.

Bring idle up to 625-650rpm.

Take ya carb mixture screws out to 1 1/4 turns.

Adjust to 30 degrees and that will keep it from leaning out.

Easiest way to remember how to set msd curve.

 

You have 30 on motor.

You want to start car at 10.

30-20=10.

So to start car you need to retard 20 degrees.

Thats your starting point.

Will be on the left of graph.

 

Then say your motor revs to 6000rpm. Idles for arguements sake at 1000.

You have 5000rpm to divide by 20 degrees of timing...

So thats 1 degree of timing to 250rpm....

You put a log point up one degree every 250rpm.

 

Will give you a rough base curve to start with.

 

Jack.

 

Sent from my GT-S7583T using Tapatalk

[Harrison Kotrolos 29]

Okay, I am back, I went on holiday and i apologies for not responding.

 

This is what has happened so far, So i got a basic curve, and drove the car a couple of days, straight away i found a fuel issue, the mechanical pump wasn't pushing enough fuel for the Holley, and it was just a freaking dog. I fixed this issue by running a electronic small fuel pump right from the fuel tank, and it creates enough pressure that it nearly fills the fuel filter at the engine, its perfect because when I start the car, the mechanical fuel pump creates enough pressure to pull the last bit of fuel forward into the Holley.

 

So I took about 3 days of tuning the bowl of the Holley, and the idle, I changed jets up and down, but I think i'll need a dyno to really tell whats best.

 

So i loaded a basic curve and drove it, god it was great, was so much happier with the proper amount of fuel, and with the new diff and gears she was ready to get up and go, and then i hit a problem. SHE BOGS. From idle or even when moving, I'l drop a gear and put my foot down to the floor, and she just bogs out, splutters a litttle, and then bam grips and hauls arse.

 

So i think this bogging is two things, the cam on the accelerator on the Holley is really aggressive, its basically ON or OFF, so I am thinking of changing to a more exponential type of cam, because i can't really keep a constant speed, because like I said, its either ON or OFF. Next I'm cranking the timing to 30 degrees, and then starting idle at 15, at the moment it only goes from 10 to 15, I know its tiny and I'm wasting potential, but i had changed alot in the engine and needed to make sure it was all working under an okay load.

 

Now I have started many other forums which I hope you can all comment on and help me with and enjoy. Just go to my profile and you will find them, unless there is a way to link forums in this forum.

​Again thankyou all for your help, if you have any pointers on the bogging, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Harry

[gerg 10,871]

Ok first thing, you should get the timing to where it should be. Many carby problems are ignition problems.

 

What spec is your Holley? Has it been messed with? List number? What pump cam is it, squirter size, jets, power valve size? If it's bog stock then you can't go wrong at least with driveability. There will be room for tuning later but to get you running you need to find out what's in it.

[Harrison Kotrolos 29]

Hey gerg,

 

Yeah i will get the timing fixed tomorrow, have been away, so didn't really get to mess with it. I'll push it to 30degrees tomorrow or until it pings.

 

The car is driveable, but sometimes it kinds stumbles on itself, or bogs, or like it chokes kinda and sputters.

 

I know the cam on the carb has to be changed, because its seriously just on or off, like I can't kinda keep my foot slightly on because it kinda starts to stumble, and then i push it a little more and its fine.

 

in regards to the Holley, its a 2bll 350 holley, its brand new so nothing has been modifed, it has either 53 or 54 jets in it at the moment, not sure about power valve it was changed when the car was dyno with points ignition. In regards to the squirters they are whatever the Carb comes with stock. The cam is a pink or purple, will have to check tomorrow, but basically it has a little hill, then a decent flat spot, and then its got a constant sized hill/lump.

​Thanks,

 

Harry

[judgetread 757]

Pump cam only really takes care of the shooters when you mash the pedal, Id look else where first as other factors have a bigger influence of it then the pump cams.

 

Firstly, does it bog or hesitate? too different things, could be not enough fuel or to much fuel. Does it do it when you mash the pedal only or when a steady increase is applied? Does it surge at light pedal? or when it stumbles  does lifting you foot off a little clear it up? Does it blow black smoke at any point driving it?

 

Figure out what it doing, raise or lower the float firstly and see it helps or worse. Floats can have a big influence on the way it drives and behaves. Then look at the powervalve, you may need to bring it on sooner or later, again depends on what its doing now.

[gerg 10,871]

+1 on the floats. Holley tells you to set it a certain way but they don't know your engine. The way I like to do it is wind the idle up to the rpm where you see fuel start to dribble out of the boosters. If you notice any hesitation up to that point, particularly just before the "spill-over" of the booster, you need to raise the float level. Go in 1/4 turn increments till there is no stumble up to the spill-over point.

 

Doing so brings the booster (main circuit) on a bit sooner, which might cure your flat spot.

 

Also check that the acc pump is working the instant you touch the throttle. Some of the later Holleys had issues with the arm riding on the throttle spring instead of the cam. Pink cam isn't particularly aggressive but if you want to step down I think black is the mildest one (check their charts to confirm).

[Harrison Kotrolos 29]

Alrightttt, today has been a long day, went to get a wheel alignment on the car, and turns out one of my sleeves has busted itself and won't tighten no matter what, so I am sourcing one of those.

 

In regards to whats happened with the timing, I have followed almighty and wise gerg's words, and cranked the advance all the way to 30 degress, at idle it wasn't too happy. But then I made a small curve on the MSD, got the idle at 15degrees and then basically moved it up from there.

 

OMG WHAT A DIFFERENCE, so basically alll the issues I said about the carb are gone, I have acceleration and power and just everything. I am so happy with it, and I thankyou so much to all you guys, especially Gerg for this awesome help.

 

So here is where I stand, smashing the motor around, I have slowly started cleaning the MASSIVE carbon composite on the spark plugs. Now there is still a little there, anyone can give me a reason to massive carbon build up on the plugs?? Like I know running rich can be a cause, but the motor seems to be liking high jets, and use to have massive fuel delivery issue, so it was running lean for a while.

 

During the day I moved the jet sizes up to 36, it made a much better difference, I can't get idle to 650rpm however, lowest I can get is 750 running smooth, and 700rpm with a bit of stumble, if I go to 650rpm idle it has massive stumble and sounds unhealthy.

 

Now I made my curve more elaborate, and made it pretty agreeisve, I have put the car on the dyno, so I know the where the cam kicks in and all, there is ever so slight a flat spot at low rpm and tad throttle, but it really fucking pulls. However, I have a feeling it could still be running lean, like to lean. I may be wrong, but I too it for a drive with the 36 jets, and bit of tuning on the float level, and it guns it really well, but it feels like the engine wants something.

 

Now I have taken into consideration my airfilter may be way to restricing on the motor, I will upload a pic of it. But i checked the spark plugs after driving it with 36 jets, there, and there was no real smell of any fuel on the plugs. this is my reasoning to running a little to lean for the motor.

 

My thinking is, up the jets and mofidy the curve until I can smell a little fuel on the plugs, and then back one or two jets down from there.

 

Keep in mind I have not changed power valve, so that may make a difference.

 

thank you all again for the help, the car is becoming more and more amazing.

[slydog 7,873]

Idle it @ 800... 

 

Look up how to read spark plugs...

 

Get a vac gauge...learn to use it.

[gerg 10,871]

If the car goes ok on 56 jets (you said 36 but that can't be right) then I can't see much issue with the current jetting. There's probably more tuning to be had by stuffing around with PVCRs but at your level of knowledge right now I think changing jets is fine. We could tell you how to do it but I don't want to feel responsible for you fucking a nice new carby lol.

 

I seem to remember old-school blokes saying that 350 Holleys liked 58 jets on both Ford 6s and Holden reds, so you're close anyway. But if 56s are working for you, and it's getting ok economy, then leave them in and enjoy the car. You can run around in circles and pull your hair out chasing the perfect tune... I'm still doing it!