THOR

[ando76 4,354]

Flow figures Ando?? You seem pretty impressed by this head.

I'm keeping Cam specs, peak flow, intake to exhaust percentages and valve sizing to myself. Normally I would share everything, but not with this engine. Too much time and money invested to give everything away. Happy to give intake flow figures up to .500" lift.

 

These figures are @ 28" with manifold attached and the biggest bellmouth the flow bench operator had. He said the bellmouth he made wasn't big enough and the high lift figures were probably 8-10cfm more in reality. Old Joe (flowbench operator) is well in his 60's and has been playing on flow benches for a very long time so I respect what he says.

 

100 61.80

200 120.25

300 171.15

400 208.75

500 225.45

 

Should do the job you think Matt?

[ando76 4,354]

Random question ..

What top ring material do you use ?

Just good old Hastings Moly top rings mate. Nothing Flash. Remember Vac pump to help with ring seal - big piston to bore clearance with Ross pistons.....

[ando76 4,354]

fixed

 

Hey dude what happened to the quench area in the piston? Or is this one of those go against the general thinking things like most of the setup?

Damn stupid Ross pistons did not have enough meat in them to machine it in. We were actually going for a really different 'pintle' type shape but the sacrificial Ross piston told us we were dreaming. I said it to my mate Ross today - My choice of pistons is going to bite me on this build. It was the one area that skimped a bit. I had them so I used them and in reality they are still a good forged piston - just that there are better options now.

[ando76 4,354]

Few more details - Ignition system

 

MSD 6AL2 programmable ignition with matching HVC coil triggered by

MSD Universal Crank trigger kit.

TFI distributor - it will just be distributing spark, although I will wire it so that if the crank trigger fails, I can swap to hall effect.

MSD leads - Thanks to Crazy for the lead kit.

BP9ES plugs.

 

No real point posting photos of all that stuff - I'm sure you have all seen what they look like.

[wagoon 2,429]

These figures are @ 28" with manifold attached and the biggest bellmouth the flow bench operator had. He said the bellmouth he made wasn't big enough and the high lift figures were probably 8-10cfm more in reality. Old Joe (flowbench operator) is well in his 60's and has been playing on flow benches for a very long time so I respect what he says.

 

100 61.80

200 120.25

300 171.15

400 208.75

500 225.45

Bit of back story on Joe as I have had a bit to do with him and I worked with his brother Jim. Joe and Jim have been into Fords and drag racing since back when there was a drag strip at surfer paradise. Jim has now retired from being the best blacksmith for 30 years in a blacksmith shop that has been operating for 150 years. Jim now rebuilds magneto's in his retirement and is the best at it full stop. Joe is just as good as his brother but does everything from flow bench to rebuilds, he problem solves everything from boats to drag cars to circuit racers and everything in between. Joe know what he is talking about, he is old school wont suffer fools and tells you how it is.

 

On Joe's flow bench my cylinder head (about 2 grands worth) with no manifold attached made peak 215 cfm@550. My head is still very budget compared to Thor's head, plus Thor's flow figures are with manifold attached so head only is going to be WAY more than above.

[wagoon 2,429]

Damn stupid Ross pistons did not have enough meat in them to machine it in. We were actually going for a really different 'pintle' type shape but the sacrificial Ross piston told us we were dreaming. I said it to my mate Ross today - My choice of pistons is going to bite me on this build. It was the one area that skimped a bit. I had them so I used them and in reality they are still a good forged piston - just that there are better options now.

Even on a dream engine money plays a part, I know that feeling.

At least you know there is still improvement in the engine's performance, if something was to happen to the pistons(god forbid it did happen and I hope it doesn't) you can always go the dish setup later.

[ando76 4,354]

Cheers Ryan.  Yeah old Joe is one of kind.  Classical music pumped full noise through the shed.  He is a champion, no bullshit old school legend. 

[broken-wheel 659]

at 550 i'm at 235 and made 355 at wheels so you should hit 380hp at the wheels with them webber quite easily, if we can only make the thing flow past .550 and not stall ....

[blu xe 825]

Where'd you end up finding the tina? Can't remember the last time I saw one up this way that wasn't raped by rust! Got a feeling that THOR will be without a home for a bit while the Corty gets some love?

[ando76 4,354]

Where'd you end up finding the tina? Can't remember the last time I saw one up this way that wasn't raped by rust! Got a feeling that THOR will be without a home for a bit while the Corty gets some love?

Mount garnet mate. That's where the photo was taken. It has rust in all the usual places and a couple of nasty bits. Nothing I can't fix with time. It's no restorer and that's what I was after as it was always going to be a stripped out race car with just the bare essentials. It raced in Townsville back in the day as a dedicated drag car.

 

Yeah THOR will hit the engine dyno in Brissy and after that it will come home a sit waiting for me to get the corty done. I've got a few customer engines to knock over in the new year and then I might get stuck into the corty. Might put a beer and bbq on every Saturday and invite Butcher from JB over and hook into the corty.

[blu xe 825]

Dan's a champ. Young grass hopper did his time with us at Bears. He goes good with the gun. Funny you mentioned the beers. He painted my Xe after a pretty big night. Poor bastard was sick as trying not to vomit in his mask and was overall feeling very seedy. I was amazed at how good he got it off the gun and I always joke with him that he should just paint everything drunk cause it came out so well. Ask him bout it  he'll have a good giggle.

[ando76 4,354]

Yeah he gets great results and a top young fella to go with it. I'll ask him about the painting the xe for sure.

[matt_lamb_160 252]

I'm keeping Cam specs, peak flow, intake to exhaust percentages and valve sizing to myself. Normally I would share everything, but not with this engine. Too much time and money invested to give everything away. Happy to give intake flow figures up to .500" lift.These figures are @ 28" with manifold attached and the biggest bellmouth the flow bench operator had. He said the bellmouth he made wasn't big enough and the high lift figures were probably 8-10cfm more in reality. Old Joe (flowbench operator) is well in his 60's and has been playing on flow benches for a very long time so I respect what he says.100 61.80200 120.25300 171.15400 208.75500 225.45Should do the job you think Matt?

Don't have a clue, don't know your exhaust and high lift figures...

 

That is good flow there. A bit low (may be just?) at 0.100" considering the other numbers?

 

You seriously think that intake to exhaust ratio is that sensitive, especially given we don't know your cam?

 

Never understood people not sharing flow figures when they are showing off a build. Cams, valve sizes, and porting I get (I can't build it just using a list of numbers), maybe their logic is the same as yours. I don't tend to show what I build at all I guess, haha.

[FORD_MAN 1,026]

Joe sort of sounds like Bob from the local drag club, & who tunes my ute,

been building drag cars and racing since the early 70's, has worked on circuit cars, also works on boats.

 

Crossflow heads can flow over 0.550" it just takes work to get it right,

Me I was lazy, I just took my head to a CNC porter, also did it to test flow for when I build my race xflow.

Will be cool to see what Thor makes on the dyno & on the track, I like seeing more tuff xflows out there.

[broken-wheel 659]

Don't have a clue, don't know your exhaust and high lift figures...

 

That is good flow there. A bit low (may be just?) at 0.100" considering the other numbers?

 

You seriously think that intake to exhaust ratio is that sensitive, especially given we don't know your cam?

 

Never understood people not sharing flow figures when they are showing off a build. Cams, valve sizes, and porting I get (I can't build it just using a list of numbers), maybe their logic is the same as yours. I don't tend to show what I build at all I guess, haha.

 

 

I think there isn't a lot of lift there as the pistons aren't fly cut (yet?) so around .610 max, I also realised not to take bench figures for granted, I made more power than the bench figure said.

 

Biggest misconception with the crossflow is that you need to keep ports small and speed up which is totally bullshit, here is an example:

 

Crossflow

93 x 99mm (i run 95 bore so 95 x 99mm)

 

Cleveland 351

102 x 90mm

 

So the crossflow is loosing 7mm in the bore but gaining 9mm in the stroke in my case yet you have retards telling you to not touch the ports as you need to keep speed up and 650 carb is way too big....The crossflow pulls better signal per cyl than the Clevo and same swept volume and look at what the 3V or 4V port flows, only shows you can't really listen to those old folk who still believe in 30/70 cams

[ando76 4,354]

The reason I'm not sharing cam specs is that it was GT's profile that he developed and gave to Dean at Tighe and it's not freely given out. I have to respect that. The other stuff I just want to keep to myself - well just because.

 

Lift is below .610" - well spotted on the no reliefs. Why? because flow suggests we don't need to be up that far. Others have their theories on this and I respect that and have no issue with it. It's just not the way I have chosen to go. Why? Because I believe that any gains past there are lost by the mechanical effort required to get the valve off the seat that far and that can induce reliability issues.

 

As to porting and what works for these heads - well that's an argument I'm not interested in. Everyone has their own ideas on what works and why. Me I'm happy with the way we went. We have the flow and good percentages. It should pull very hard from very low in the rev range and make solid power thru to 6500 where the 45's might just start to kill it.

 

This is all just theory at the moment and part of the process of designing a package for a purpose. Like I said at the start, this is my interpretation of the ultimate aspo x-flow. It will really test a lot of my long held beliefs on what is good and what works on these engines. If I'm wrong you will all see it unfold here on this thread. I have a few things I'm not letting on but apart from that I intend to take you all along on the journey with heaps of photos and videos. Good, bad or ugly you will see it all. I have nothing to hide.

 

It will all be in here and hopefully I will hit my target and if not - I'll leave this planet knowing I had a red hot go and I didn't sit on my hands thinking about it. It is also a huge mark of respect to my late, great mentor GT! Already it has been soo much fun, hanging with my good friend Cam while we discuss tactics, port a little and generally talk engine stuff. Annoying old Joe at the flow bench with what seems like a 100 flow testing sessions and listening to all his old tails and theories.

[matt_lamb_160 252]

Good enough for me Ando (although I still don't see what people can do with flow figures). Hope it works well for you. I am sure it will be fast, whatever the end numbers are.

 

If you are not lifting past 0.6" you aren't using the flow above the 0.5" valves for very long.

[broken-wheel 659]

i think he is going for the 389 cam with a little more aggressive ramp rate but again the cam is just one small thing

 

regarding lift, you can get it to flow past 600 and hold it to 650 but it's hard because you have to shape the port like a D on its side while it goes around as the ports aren't straight or else you hit water, this is a nightmare and you can't possibly add more cfm without basically tracing the water jacket, if you fill the port with melted rubber then pull it out and you measure the circumference of the smallest part of the port you'll see it flows under 127cfm at 10", this is right before the short turn so doing anything in the bowl etc is pointless at mid to high lift, you gain some low lift but that's about it, i think the guy from WA who said you get 300 hp from his heads was full of shit if he only did pocket work, just opening up the area before the short turn by 1mm gives you 132cmf at 10" for 5min with a die grinder and absolutely nothing else, you go 3 mill and you hit water thou so you have to get an inverted D where the straight line is the floor

 

I really like to see this engine go, are you going to have it done before the winter ?

[ando76 4,354]

Engine dyno in February 2016 is the goal. It will depend on a few things but that is the goal. The carbs have to go away early in the new year and I have to get a sump and pickup sorted and then all the other stuff. Also need to get onto Mossy's mate that has the engine dyno to make sure the dyno is available and I have everything he needs to run it up.

Gotta fix a goal as I am prone to distraction..

[ando76 4,354]

Hit a few hurdles today. Partly due to pushing the boundaries and partly due to stuff out of anyone's control.

 

Unfortunately the guy I was going to use for the weber carbs has a serious health issue and is out of action. A big reminder as to what is really important in life. I love the fact that my health lets me play with engines and if that were to be taken away from me I would be lost. My best wishes to Mick for a speedy recovery.

 

I've decided to keep plugging away and today my number 1 rule of engine building came back to bite me. Check, check and check again. As you can see by the photos I put a lot of work into clearancing the block for the roller lifters and for better oil drain back.

 

 

 

 

I clearanced around the distributor 1/2 moon that protrudes into the inside of the block in the lifter gallery. When running a roller you need to do this as it effects the operation of the roller lifters in cylinder 1 & 2. I eye balled the others and there appeared to be plenty of clearance for lifter and tie bar. Probably should have actually installed the lifter for cylinder 6. I'm using these roller lifters.

 

 

Isky 'Red Zone' as they are fitted with 'Marathon' needle roller bearing and have better load resistance and are good for 9000+ Rpm. I will be know where near that RPM ceiling so I figure they will be bulletproof. The downside is that they are slightly different in their body and tie bar retaining mechanism, compared to Comp Cams lifters.

 

What does all this mean? The bloody lifter body and tie bar just contacts the very back of the block at number 6 cylinder (no.12 lifter). So what? Well now everything has to come back out again so I can clearance grind the block. I could have taken the easy way out and just ground the lifter and prayed - but that is not my style.

 

TBH it is to be expected when you are modifying to this level. In essence this will become a better dummy assembly now. I've removed all the pistons and rods except for 1 & 6 and I'll just continue.

[ando76 4,354]

After all that I decided to keep plugging away.  Camshaft dial in.  Here, once again I was reminded of the reason why I dial each and every camshaft in - regardless of application. 

 

In my experience there are just too many variables that can effect proper cam timing.  Pin position, timing gear sets - keyway position and cam plug position.  Just one of these has to be off and the cam will not line up dot to dot.

 

With the brand new Rollmaster timing set I am using and the Tighe cam - I had to 'advance' the crank gear to +8 to get correct intake centreline.  Does this mean the cam is advanced 8 degrees? NO.  It means that it has the correct centreline (as per cam card) and to get that correct centreline (and lift @TDC), the crank gear needs to be in position +8. 

 

Once again it reminds me of the importance of dialling in every cam.  I know many don't bother - BUT I will never put any cam in without proper dial in.  I prefer the intake centreline method but really there is nothing wrong with TDC method.  As long as your checking it - that's all that matters. 

 

Next on the list is to put the head on (with an old gasket) and check Piston to Valve clearance, rocker geometry and determine final pushrod length.  I also need to CC the head to determine final static compression.  I measured the deck height today and it came in at .004".  Close enough to zero deck.  With the lobe separation and comp this thing is going to sound wicked.   

[broken-wheel 659]

8 degrees is a fair whack man, one reason I refuse to use Tighe! Not only they're full of arrogance but if you can't grind a blank cam dot to dot form a fucking blank then i'll take my business somewhere else thank you very much! put all the info in Pipe Max and it will spit out a perfect cam spec which you can e-mail to Mal, pay him some money and you get a custom cam that 95% of the time is dot to dot, yes you still have to check it but you do get a nice feeling when it's dot to dot. I rather pay a hooker for a hug than spend any money with Tighe 

[ando76 4,354]

Cam pin position is just one variable. Don't forget the effect of cam gear sets. But yes Tighe cams always seem to be far from dot to dot. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. You have to check every cam anyway and once you have done the initial dial in you know how far you are out and you just move to suit. No biggy to me.

 

If you are ever exploring potential options with Tighe I strongly recommend speaking with Murray. He is very easy to deal with. Dean is a complex character and has an arrogance - but he also is a wealth of knowledge once you get to know him. I actually enjoy bouncing off him. But I always hit him with as much data as I can and have clear visions of what I want to achieve. He also softens a bit to me as he knows GT and I were mates. Bit of useless info - GT's first wife still works in accounts at Tighe.

 

I will continue to support them as they have always been good to me. not saying you should all shop there. Not by a long shot. Each to their own. Yes modern tech is good and there are a heap of computer models out there, but at the end of the day real world experience accounts in my book. I've seen the advice of old heads in this game ring true way too many times in the real world to discount their experience over a computer model.

[Banno 479]

Damn!! Between You and Slydog make it hard to give up on these old tech engines and throw them away. After reading these posts I keep finding myself not only keeping one of these going but seem to be collecting parts for them. 

[slydog 7,873]

Guy's this thread is about Ando's current engine build nothing more. Open discussion and questions on components is fine or how and why on fab/modifications etc. Remember "anyone" can start there own build threads about there set up's and is encouraged to do so. 

 

So In closing...If I don't like the post or don't think it's related or in the spirit of the thread,it's is getting deleted.

 

Happy new year all.Cheers to more V8/turbo eating xflows