What 'fancy' oil for my turbo 250?

[TUFE 284]

In light of my imminent return to the land of oz, thoughts have returned to my XE. First things first, an oil change.

I'm currently using Penrite lpg grade something something, havent had issues with it except maybe its slow to get up to pressure on cold start (this may be a generic crossflow issue).

The engine is relativley stock, no oiling mods besides running a turbo feed and drain in sump. Car is not used in curcuit racing, just drag strip and street duties. I'm looking at adding about 100hp to the tune through a few small mods in the next 6months and I want to have oiling sorted, I dont mind spending a little more to get the good stuff.

So what can you recommend me?

[slydog 7,873]

Something that likes heat...like PM50 or Fuch's Titan 

[ando76 4,354]

Fuchs Titan. These old girls love it and your bearings will thank you. Titan has awesome high temp properties and degrades way slower than other oils when oil temps get to the scary level.

[wagoon 2,429]

As above I'm using Fuchs Titan Formula 60- formally know as titan race 60. For the price at least from the place I get it  https://maxiparts.com.au/lubrication-and-coolants/fuchs-lubricants/engine-oil/titan-formula-60-engine-oil/ you can't go past it. You pay the same or more for generic penrite stuff. If the budget can stretch a little further here's a 20 litre drum of the same formula 60 which will save you $22 over buying it in 5 litre drums  https://maxiparts.com.au/lubrication-and-coolants/fuchs-lubricants/engine-oil/titan-formula-60-engine-oil-en/

[TUFE 284]

Thats the one I've heard everyone on here talking about. Seems to be the go.

Now I have the good oil, ryco filters are still good to use?

Also a quick one, external oil cooler an overkill for this thing?

[slydog 7,873]

Your oil filter is a Ryco or K&N or Aeroflow pretty well.

 

Oil cooler is a wise investment on a boosted car IMO but it has to be a good worth while unit not a $50 eBay special.

[wagoon 2,429]

I'm running these filters http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/knn-ps-3001/overview/ They are Pro series K&N but internally they are the same as the standard K&N filter with the nut on the outside, except these are half the price. If you bought 10 right now with the exchange rate it is less than $20 per filter which is still cheaper than buying a K&N filter here is OZ.

Crazy2287 has cut up a Ryco filter and had a look inside (can't remember if it was on here or old site) and the Ryco is a good filter. I have always used Ryco filters on my daily drivers and still do, but on my performance engine I wanted a performance filter. No idea if the K&N is better or will even make a difference compared to a Ryco but I guess it's just peace of mind really.

[ando76 4,354]

If you are going to run an oil cooler make sure you use big lines to feed it. -12 (yes 3/4") minimum!!! If you don't you will see a massive drop in oil pressure to the scary level. I used 1/2" line and lost 20psi of oil,pressure in a heart beat. I shit you not and that was with a quality cooler and properly radius end and tidied take off fitting at the filter.

I do not recommend 'on circuit' oil cooling on these engines. I would rather see an increased capacity, quality sump and oil in there rather than any cooler.

The other option is 'off circuit' cooling. This is a great option and if you had a serious, extended duration Motorsport turbo engine, I'd build the off circuit system for sure. A Tilton diff pump is the go.

[Crazy2287 1,886]

Ryco filters are good units, Cut a few oil and petty ones open and could not fault them. Use coil springs in the bypass and silicone ADBV too. Specs say they filter to factory efficiency levels. So yeah, Nothing wrong with ryco. If your not sure what filter to get then get a ryco.

If you want something better then you can go for a high efficiency filter. I think ryco do a HE z9 speck filter but i've never used them.

Currently i use a Dobinson P169071 which uses a multi-layer synthetic medium for filtering with an efficiency rating of 22um @99%

It's plausible to use a good (ie Dobinson) HE filter for 25,000km in standard applications and just change (or drain+add a liter) of oil to keep the wear pack up. However dont do this without taking oil samples and having them checked every 5,000k For your first Filter/oil change interval to ensure that doing it suits your engine and application.

When comparing micron levels ensure you compare at the same efficiency ratings. Ie some brands will give their UM at 85% efficiency. IE, 20um @ 85%: So in other words 15% of contaminates smaller than 20um make it through. If a filter spec does not give you what efficiency it's measured at then assume they are using a lower efficiency.

For comparison, For engine oils, A filter that performs at 40um@99% is good. The get better than this a synthetic medium is usually used, as trapping smaller than 40um with a normal paper element will impede oil flow.

For fuel filters, a good efficiency rating is 12um @ 99% or less. New diesels and EFI cars typically need and use as low as 4um filters for fuel.

 

For oil, I'm a big fan of Penrite HPR30 in a standard crossy. I've had some HPR30 suffer from either shearing or thermal breakdown after using the car for Drags and circuit, As showen by a drop in Viscosity picked up by an oil analysis. This is caused by mechanical shearing or thermal breakdown of the viscosity modifiers.

Full synthetic oils don't have viscosity modifiers so i've switched to Penrite racing 15, This oil's also resistant to emulsification so it will be suitable for alcohol fuels.

Done 3k on the oil so far, cars been unregistered for all of that so it's mostly track work and burnouts. Nothing has gone wrong yet but due to the low KM on the oil i've not done an oil analysis, This will be coming early next year.

 

So my recommendation is HPR30 for normal - street at about $50 a bottle or use Racing15 or Racing20 for Hectic under the pump engines at about $75 a bottle

 

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=24&id_products=278

 

Never done anything at all with Fuch oil so i cannot comment. But if someone wants to do some Tribology on their funch oil at set interval in a crossy Id be interested in the results. It it performs as well as the Penrite and costs less I'll be changing for sure!

[broken-wheel 659]

Titan is good, i get it free. Shell Rotella 15w-40 is cheap and better than the Penrite crap (yes crap, every time i used it I felt the engine losing power)

 

I use https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1-racing-oil and will continue to use it, best over the counter oil full of ZDDP for solid cams

[Crazy2287 1,886]

So your biases for condemning Penrite is "every time i used it I felt the engine losing power"
Have you got something more than conjecture? Or was that purely speculative?

Also, FYI Mobile 1 racing is a, Yep, racing oil. Dedicated racing oils should not be used for long Oil change intervals like those seen on a street car. On top of that, the amount of phosphorous in it exceeds normal safe levels which can induce galvanic corrosion of aluminum components as the oil ages. It's uncertain if  damage will occur to the engine in your specific application but you should be aware of the possible effects if using it.

And if you WERE aware already of the specs of this oil then it's not very nice to be recommending it to someone for use in a road vehicle, knowing that it could shorten the life of their engine.

[broken-wheel 659]

i have no empirical evidence but i know how my engine revs and the HPR30 to me wasn't in the ball park to Titan and Titan is no where near in the ball park as the Mobil1 racing, with the Mobil1 racing you get a really good level of smoothness above 5500 rpm that I have not experienced with any other oil, I change the Mobil1 Racing every 30 laps, or used to 5 laps plus warm up and cool down laps per forthright plus daily use so about 9 litres per change (accusump holds a bit) and never experienced any corrosion.

 

You have to keep one thing in mind, Mobil1 racing IS the recommended oil for his engine if he services the thing every 5000km, specially if he has a solid cam. There is nothing better than it. Street car or no street car if you change it every 5.000km or 6 months there will be no corrosion or anything. As for the zddp who cares? he is probably not running a cat so pollution is not an issue if you dispose of the oil properly.

 

My motor was clean as a whistle when I pulled down and I mean clean. Rod bearings still had the marks on them from the inside micrometer after about 11.000km so. The reason they removed most of the ZDDP is because of the phosphorus not the zinc and they removed that because people used to dump the oil in drains etc, so they went to great lengths to find a formula to replace it, it's like decaf coffee for solid cam motors using the normal oil.

[PRO250 1,506]

cheap oil cause bearings are cheap

[Crazy2287 1,886]

Your switching a 20w-60 oil for a 0w-30/0w-50 of course your going to gain power.

The corrosion would likely be undetectable until failure. The best way to check for it would be oil analysis.
I would not recommend using it in a 5000km OCI.

But, if Anyone does decide to use it, id' recommend monitoring the oil for TBN retention every 1000-1500km just to make sure it's not failing under the conditions presented by your engine and expected OCI. Don't forget to post results.

BTW, 5000km is approx 2200 laps of wakefield park...

[TUFE 284]

This thread has gotten good haha. Thanks for the input guys, looks like I'll try the fuchs titan and see how it goes (not that I'll notice a difference by feel). Knowing this insides will be happy I'll just rev it harder.

 

Also looks like the cooler might be a bridge too far aswell. Probably overkill for my application

[slydog 7,873]

There has only been 1 oil in my engine I could "feel" a difference with and it was Liqu Moly.It is too heavy and did not flow until the engine had over 60 degree's of oil temp.You could notice it rev freely after oil got up to temp. So below that you have to think it wasn't protecting very well?

 

We have a place in town where we can cut filters open and check em then send oil for checking but TBH unless you do it often it won't help cos you will miss the window of tin thru oil.

 

Fastest NAT ASP xflow in Aust runs HPR30 and has only ever gotten quicker so we can assume it works well on that basis.Not a every day car or turbo either so there may be factors we havn't taken into acc other than heat ?

[matt_lamb_160 252]

Interesting. I would have thought HPR30 was a bit in the heavy side in that application an HPR10 would be better.

[gerg 10,871]

Gulf Western 20W-50 on spesh at Supercheap: 4l bottle for 9.95. Just treat it like a 15W-40 as it's piss-thin when hot. Then splash out on a can of Liqui-moly and you're still way ahead.

 

Aussie owned and made too (as is Hi-tec, Penrite and Nulon)

[PRO250 1,506]

I ran that in my ghia for a while but bad oil but goes to shit fast

[gerg 10,871]

Lol my clevo came with an oil injection system... Aka valve guides, therefore doesn't have time to turn to shit.

[ando76 4,354]

Not a big fan of the gulf western product after I saw it munch a blown big block chev to pieces. Was the only change to the engine (previously ran Fuchs) and then pop. Ok it was a far from stock motor but the Fuchs did the job.

[broken-wheel 659]

yeah it's hard to go past the Titan oil, i would be weary of any "new oil company" products even being Australian, although we make some good shit to be honest this Gulf Western thing is good as a flush oil, run it for a quick run around the block then dump it and fill her up with proper oil

 

in the early 90's i used to run Shell Helix Ultra and back then it was around $75 a 4L bottle, the EFI XF I had back then loved it! I've used that in all my other falcons EB/ED/EF/EL and with the EL I remember I had took it to Ford for it's service and they put in whatever it was recommended for their XR6's and I could tell the difference, dropped the oil the next day and put Helix Ultra and it was back to normal

 

I don't know how people say they can't tell difference between shit and good oil, if you know your car you can tell the difference, my suggestion is to use a really really good oil once then see if you can tell the difference when you replace with the cheap shit oil at the next service, if you can then lesson learned, if you can't then go buy a Camry and let toyota service it for you while you play ping pong with your friends

[Crazy2287 1,886]

The real test would be to go buy a good and a shit oil. Decant both oils into unmarked containers so only the supplier knows which is which, and then run the test.

For it to be valid though, both oils would need to be the same grade.

 

But, in saying that the measure of an oil is not how much power the engine makes when running on it. You could fill your sump with Diesel, for about 30 seconds you'd call it the best oil ever.

 

If you want run an oil that does not fit manufacuters spec, have modified the engine heavily or want to change our OCI's and you really want to know if the oil your using is fit for your purpose, then you do the research, Choose an oil, Run the car on that oil for a short change interval (100km) then on the next interval run a couple of tests on the oil spaced over your expected interval (Start, middle, end) using the engine as you intend to use it.

Testing a sample costs less than an oil change and gives you a lot of information that you are otherwise only guessing about, or have to tear the engine down to find out later.

 

Here is an example of samples i have taken on my 4X4. I wanted to extend the oil change intervals to 10,000km (from 5) and use a cheaper oil that's usually used by fleet. You can see i changed from the Val DLX to the Delo400.

 

I do not need to do further analysis And now i KNOW that in my circumstance running the oil for twice it's OCI is fine. This saves me about $60 bucks every 10,000km plus the labor and i know the engine is healthy. Plus i also know the Delo has better ZDDP and Moly levels which in theory indicate a better anti wear pack.

[Crazy2287 1,886]

Heres a description of each component
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/engine-oil-analysis/

and here's an old thread that is slightly relevant.

http://www.ozfalcon.com.au/index.php?/topic/1883-oil-filters-discussion/page-2

[Grimmy 312]

Can some one explain the difference between

API SL/CF (25w60)

&

API SJ/CF(20w50)

 

And I've always wondered if using straight 50 weight oil would be any good