Solid v hyd cams with similar specs

[LJDB 103]

if u had a solid and hyd cam with simlar lift, duration ect would they have similar characteristics on the road or would one perform better. Not strictly xflow but probably the best section to ask

[slydog 7,873]

2 cams the same size per say will always result in the solid making more power been smoother and more efficient.A solid 10th bigger will have act the same as the hyd but out perform it in every way. How ever the cost and labor is why people choose hyd.

[Thom 6,650]

Flat tappet I'd go solid, they sound like they mean business, more power and better drivability (if you are prepared to do valve lash adjustments more often and such). Roller I'd prefer hydraulic over solid in a canted valve engine (xflow, clevo, big block chev etc) if you are going to see more street miles over track miles the pushrods pushing at an angle tend to limit the service life of a solid roller lifter, the longest we had a set of solid lifters last in my old man's clevo was 30,000ks after 4 sets of lifters and 2 cams we decided to go to a hydraulic roller as the car just gets used too much to warrant the solid roller, they hydraulic roller that's in it now has done over 40,000ks trouble free and between the solid and the hydraulic it only lost 11hp and 16 ftlbs at the treads

[ando76 4,354]

Good solid info there team. 

[wagoon 2,429]

Flat tappet I'd go solid, they sound like they mean business, more power and better drivability (if you are prepared to do valve lash adjustments more often and such). Roller I'd prefer hydraulic over solid in a canted valve engine (xflow, clevo, big block chev etc) if you are going to see more street miles over track miles the pushrods pushing at an angle tend to limit the service life of a solid roller lifter, the longest we had a set of solid lifters last in my old man's clevo was 30,000ks after 4 sets of lifters and 2 cams we decided to go to a hydraulic roller as the car just gets used too much to warrant the solid roller, they hydraulic roller that's in it now has done over 40,000ks trouble free and between the solid and the hydraulic it only lost 11hp and 16 ftlbs at the treads

I like that info but it has me worried.

[slydog 7,873]

I wouldn't be worried Ryan. There's alot of other variables to go into the combo and knowing Ando it will have just enough spring and no more.

[PRO250 1,506]

As said the solid will be the stronger cam but the trade off is you have to work on it. im lazy these days I only have 3 solid engines these days its just to hard to spend 35 minutes adjusting the rockers

Then theres a roller where you can bang the valve on and off the seat trade off for that cam is the cost. is it worth it?

[LJDB 103]

Most solids have big lift and duration so there would be not point using one unless the combo was big. Say u had a solid with .500 lift and 270 adv duration, hydraulic would be the way to go or the solid would still we worth the extra effort.

[slydog 7,873]

Well there more stable hence thats why they use em but that ^^^ cam shaft is hardly big.

[LJDB 103]

That's what I meant, a mild cam like above wouldn't be worth the extra effort of setting up a solid

[wagoon 2,429]

You will find it hard to get a solid in a smaller/mild size unless you go custom. So to get a solid your going to have to have a certain level of performance in mind anyway. Once you get to that level of performance usually application deems whether a hydraulic can be used or a solid. Solid will out perform as mentioned above, so hydraulic is really only a choice in that level of performance where you don't want to/have time to perform the maintenance required for the solid.

Take a look at both of these camshaft manufactures top 2 links are Tighe bottom 2 links Camtech. You will notice for both manufactures the smallest solid is at least half way down the list for the hydraulics when comparing size

 

Tighe solid  http://tighecams.com.au/cars.htm

Tighe hydraulic  http://tighecams.com.au/profiles2/fordcrosshyd.htm

 

Camtech solid  http://www.camtechcams.com.au/ford_6cyl_xflow_sol.html

Camtech hydraulic  http://www.camtechcams.com.au/ford_6cyl_xflow_hyd.html

[FORD_MAN 1,026]

Crow do a 231@0.050" 550" 108 L/C as Hyd 14672(280adv) or solid 14872(272adv)

Cam's can have same 0.050" lift duration & valve lift but completely different lobe profiles

Normally Solid cams will have a more aggressive ramp rate on the lobes,

So it will open the valve faster & most likely will have more @0.200" & a like duration and less advertised duration.

 

I have a 237@0.050" 553" 108L/C in the build, any bigger cam I would of gone solid.

[slydog 7,873]

Well why wouldn't it if it is more efficient smoother and makes more power ? I can set my rockers in next to no time and checking them usually shows there still fine.

 

I don't know why people think it work or even harder when TBH it's just preparation IMO.

 

But if your not the type of guy who wants to be doing that then a HYD is for you but they still have to set properly aswell. Not just drop em in and tighten fuck out of everything. They need to be set correctly.    

[ando76 4,354]

Remember a solid will be way more reliable with consistent RPM.  If you are doing consistent high rpms - forget a hydraulic.  Even with anti pump up lifters.

[CHESTNUTXE 7,310]

So my dreams of a crow 14650 hyd and mods might not be too good at the strip ?

[wagoon 2,429]

Read the combo I copied into this thread. It is the same specs as the crow (not sure of the brand of cam in the combo) but was used to great success but just don't expect it to beat the world http://www.ozfalcon.com.au/index.php?/topic/5270-what-to-build/

[CHESTNUTXE 7,310]

is there a hyd roller for a crossy ?

[slydog 7,873]

Roller cam for my xflow cost in @ $960 for the camshaft alone,$600 for the lifters $600 for the springs $300ish for retainers locks and stuff then add the valves $500-600ish and I spent $1300 @ the porters for port and machine work. That is all before rockers guide plates studs and the balls to go for a banging NAT ASP 6cyl over a turbo or V8. To add it is FAR from a daily...

 

Do you need or want a roller for your xflow ?

[CHESTNUTXE 7,310]

im just interested what is availible 

[wagoon 2,429]

is there a hyd roller for a crossy ?

Nothing off the shelf just like everything to suit a go fast crossy as I am finding out. It's all the little things that need to be made/modified/desgined then made that is just not there for the crossy. I have designed and made engine mounts for a crossy, had to make throttle brackets as off the shelf stuff doesn't fit, had to search a lot to find an air filter that will allow enough air into the engine without hurting performance and fit between engine and shock tower. This is only a couple of things that I have made as well.

Not trying to scare you off but trying to make you aware that a truly fast crossflow is not something that can be put together with off the shelf stuff. Most shops would either struggle/take a while/ or charge shitloads for all the "custom" parts needed. I think that is what makes a fast crossflow so special, it has the blood, sweat and lots of tears of the owner put into it. But it is a very rewarding experience once your there ,or at least that what I keep telling myself so I can actually get to the end of my build without going insane (it helps to be a bit loopy before you start)

[CHESTNUTXE 7,310]

I am quite capable of assembling the engine,in other posts i have said a friend of mine own's and runs a good machine shop and he loves playing around with stuff like this he is old school and has done a lot of i6's in his time,i have told him i want to do something crazy with this engine either turbo or supercharged or wild n/a with n20 so im just getting as much info i can ,i have done many big clevo's but this crossy thing has got my attension at the moment.

[ando76 4,354]

Assembling the engine is the easy part.  Working out what parts fit and making all the special little things that you need to make a stout, hypo crossflow - well that is the hard bit.

 

That is what Ryan and Slydog are telling you and believe me you should listen to them.  I have had a hand in both of those engines and I can tell you that they are full of custom parts and trick pieces to make them last the distance.  That's just the engines.  Then there is the fuel and ignition systems to go with them.  These things are not Clevo's where you can just click on a bunch of part numbers from summit and have a stout sump, oil pump and free flowing heads, extractors etc etc.  Its all custom when you are talking roller cam level. 

 

Anyone cam piece together a time bomb crossflow, that's easy.  What these men are trying to tell you is that if you go down the hypo crossflow route, you had better be prepared to spend some serious coin or be a very fast learner who can build his own stuff. 

 

A roller cam crossflow either hydraulic or solid is not something you want to undertake light heartedly.  Get some experience building a good flat tappet crossflow and then think about roller cam.  Trust me I have a fair collection of stout crossflow myself and build them for endurance applications as part of my living.  Some would say I have an unhealthy addiction to them but I have managed to build a buick engine this year so I'm not that obsessed.  Okay maybe just a little.

[wagoon 2,429]

I am quite capable of assembling the engine,in other posts i have said a friend of mine own's and runs a good machine shop and he loves playing around with stuff like this he is old school and has done a lot of i6's in his time,i have told him i want to do something crazy with this engine either turbo or supercharged or wild n/a with n20 so im just getting as much info i can ,i have done many big clevo's but this crossy thing has got my attension at the moment.

Just a warning though crossflows become addictive

 

To make serious power I see only 2 viable options NA or turbo. I would forget the supercharged idea, while they look and sound cool I just don't think it will compare to a serious turbo or NA motor. Now with the turbo motor if you want serious your going to need aftermarket inlet and exhaust manifolds. The exhaust manifold shouldn't be a problem but it ain't going to be cheap (more than a grand for a 6 boost beauty). for a good one. The inlet side is a choice between efi or carb. Carb can be done but I don't know how well you can shove boost into an aftermarket carby manifold and expect it work like NA and your going to need to get someone to setup the carb. EFI inlet is going to be either full custom or heavily modified aftermarket version, but your going to have to work with someone that knows the way the inlet flows to get even flow all the way back to #6 cylinder. Your going to need a computer to run the efi which means you need to talk to your tuner and see what they like to use, then your going to have to see if it will work with a crossy.

Then you can start on the cylinder head which is going to be the most important part of the build. As Sly pointed out you can expect to sink several grand into a working head that's ported with roller rocker and a good seat cut (seat cut is probably the one of most important part of the head work)

Then theres the bottom end. You can save yourself a bit here by getting hypereutectic piston, but I am not sure if a high boost engine will need forged bottom end. You will need to prep the block for oil flowing back to the sump, speaking of a sump it will need to be a custom setup with windage trays and scrappers if you want to rev it. Depending on the sump you might need to modify the engine crossmember.

 

These are just the basics of a serious crossflow, and yes there are people that have built serious crossflows that did not do this. But making a proven better than 330hp crossflow that doesn't break every couple of times you run it takes all the "over the top" prep. Even when you do all the prep and spend the time, if your pushing the envelope you can expect breakages just like any serious hypo engine

When I talk to people about my engine and say it's going to make around the 350 hp they think it's not much, and when you consider they are making 500hp factory supercharged V8s now 350hp doesn't sound much. But when I say that the engine ran mid 11's in a full weight street car and that a 350hp crossflow is actually like a 450hp+ V8 they start to understand that a hypo 6 is more than just the numbers it produces.

[CHESTNUTXE 7,310]

yeah i figure the xe is a fair bit lighter with the crossy than the clevo ,and after i gut it even more it should weigh heaps less.350hp would push the car hard with gears probly 3.9's with what i have read here on ozfalc

[slydog 7,873]

To quantify this Burns LS powered wagon make 260rwkw. My ute made 260rwhp but we match each other on the strip via car set up and weight.

 

My car is going 115 plus mph now so weight shifted it shows more hp but ET shows its slow. Point been my xflow is a hell of alot more modified than Burns LS but it has to be to do it.