Melling hv pump.

[bear351c 10,270]

Washing machine motor, an inch of fuel line and 2 hose clamps, should do it.

[ando76 4,354]

Yep same style pump - same efficiency.  Run a std volume pump up with a drill - betcha you will never run a HV pump in a FORD ever again after you do it.

 

I've had my say - I'll leave it at that. At the end of the day it is the OP's decision and we can all do what we think is right and we don't have to listen to some freak from NQ. 

[wagoon 2,429]

How bout paying attention to what a freak from south queensland is going to do? So I have been cleaning out my shed while my sedan is out of it, found the JP high volume pump and a standard ford pump out of an xf that hasnt been modified. So I have rigged up an air hose fitting to each pump and will use a standard factory oil pickup to draw the oil up in. Will give it a try tomorrow and see how I go.

2 things I have notice so far when comparing the JP to the ford

1. The JP would weight at least twice what the standard pump weighs. The standard pump with the pickup attached is still way lighter than the JP on its own.

2. Turning the pump drive by hand it is much much easier to turn the standard pump than the JP. The standard one almost feels like its free spinning where as the JP feels take a lot of effort to spin with my fingers.

Will have a play around with the setup of the rig and see what happens and go from there.

[gerg 10,871]

I reckon it will take less than 20 seconds... Took less than 10 to empty my sump when I was blowing oil filters off with my dud relief valve, and that's at idle.

[Nath 1,975]

I reckon it will take less than 20 seconds... Took less than 10 to empty when I was blowing with my relief valve

Huh?

[gerg 10,871]

Did a whole topic on it... I had a shitty knock-off no-name oil pump that came with the "reco" engine. It had a sticky relief valve, used to spike the oil pressure just as the engine fired. Used to blow the oil filter up like a balloon, and push the oil filter face away from the block and blow the seal out, then empty the contents of my sump all over an unsuspecting driveway.

 

Most oil filters are rated at 200 psi or more, so obviously it was exceeding this, even if only briefly. It's a wonder I didn't break a shaft or dizzy gear or something.

[gerg 10,871]

 

I reckon it will take less than 20 seconds... Took less than 10 to empty when I was blowing with my relief valve

 

 

Huh?

 

Oh wait I see what you did there

[wagoon 2,429]

Ok so I made a pretty big mess and I didn't get a definitive answer on the pumps but did find out some interesting things.

So here are the 2 pumps side by side. I used a standard pickup on them so it was as close a possible to what would be in the engine. The ford pump is a completely stock xf pump and as can be seen the high volume pump is JP brand. Again the JP pump would weight at least double what the Ford pump weighs.

 

I used my milwaukee 18V cordless drill with 3.0Ah battery which I fully charged last night, the drill it is rated to 1800rpm. On the standard ford pump the drill had no drama driving the pump and filled the 5 litre oil container till it overflowed in 15 seconds. The oil just flowed out the top once it got there, and it was no drama for me to hold onto the pump in one hand and drill in the other.

On the JP pump the drill laboured a lot, I could hear how much harder the drill was working and also that it was not spinning at the same rpm as with the Ford pump. So with the drill spinning slower and working much harder (this is the part where knowing the rpm of the drill driving the JP pump would make the results better) it took the JP pump a tad over 12 seconds to fill the 5 litre container to overfilling. But the oil actually spurted out the top with force instead of like with the ford pump where it just oozed out. It was a fair bit harder to hold the JP pump while the drill was driving compared to the ford pump, this would explain why this wear out when using high volume pumps.

The pic below shows the setup i used, I transferred the oil from the white 20 litre container with the lid cut off through an airline fitting out of the top of the pumps through a regular garden hose into the standard 5 litre oil container. I had my watch on the ground so I could keep on eye on the time as I had to concentrate on holding the pickup in the oil. I had to tape the hose to the handle of the 5 litre container as even with the ford pump it would pull straight out of the copntainer as stary everywhere, luckily i have plenty of weeds that need killing.

 

So because the battery drill had a fair bit of trouble turning the JP high volume pump I pulled out an 850W metabo electric hammer drill that's rated at 3000rpm. When using this electric drill I had a lot of trouble holding onto the drill and the JP pump due to the amount of torque twist. I could not fill the 5 litre container as everytime the oil got low in the white container because of the torque twist through the drill and pump I could not keep the pickup submerged and it would start sucking air. The best I could do was 4 1/2 litres in around 6 seconds but even this 850W hammer drill had a bit of trouble getting up to speed while driving the JP pump.

So with these results I would hate to see how much the high volume pump would pump with the engine driving it and at high rpm. Lets say the battery drill was turning the pump at 1500rpm which I think is very generous on the drill's power and the electric drill was turning the pump at 3000rpm. Basically the time it took to pump 5 litres was cut in half when you doubled the rpm. So an engine at 6000rpm would pump 5 litres of oil through the pump in 3 seconds. But in the real world it would probably be more oil in less time as the engine would not labour due to driving the pump and the oil would be at a different viscosity when at operating temp.

[gerg 10,871]

Although this is a good effort to demonstrate the differences in the two (if only in a qualitative sense), this is a no-load test.

 

A pump pumps flow, but pressure is determined by the restriction it is pumping into. Once an oil pump gets up to max pressure, its output volume is reduced by the relief valve, which recycles the flow back into the inlet side internally. This happens especially when cold. Once warmed up, the pressure drops to maybe half of its max relief pressure at idle (on a healthy engine and std pump), the engine only takes what it needs.

 

A high volume pump will always have the pressure sitting closer to max relief because the engine can't use all that extra volume. It ends up wasting all that energy cycling the oil round and round and at higher pressures. It causes more fluid shear and premature breakdown of the oil, not to mention all the mechanical strain.

 

I've seen a more extreme version of this on hydraulic systems that have stuck reliefs, and the oil cooks in no time. I'm talking 15 min of running and you can't touch the 250 litre hyd tank. This shows the extent of the wasted energy. When drained, instead of a nice Canola colour, it comes out more like caramel sauce.

[wagoon 2,429]

Yeah I know that there isn't much information there and that it has little bearing on how it actually runs inside the engine. If I was really really interested in finding out exactly the difference I would build a frame where I could remote drive the pump with an electric motor and measure pressure at the pump and rpm of the motor. Plumbers tape rapped around air fittings held in by cable ties is not what I would call a good setup. But the idea behind it was to see how long it would take to empty a sump which is more reflated to flow than pressure I would have thought.

I like to find stuff out for myself when I have the chance, and although this really isn't a good test the thing that shocked me the most and what I can't really put into words was the extra effort and torque that went into turning the high volume pump compared to the ford pump. I struggled to control the pump and the drills struggled to turn the pump, and I know when it's bolted into an engine it's different but to me the high volume pump would adding strain into an engine. I don't know enough of the technical side of everything that effects the running of the pump. But I would have thought that if someone would go to lengths to reduce strain on the engine by removing things being driven by the engine then adding in the high volume pump which to me clearly requires a lot more effort to turn would be doing the opposite of what they are trying to achieve.

I will say that the air fitting with the garden hose attached did place a decent restriction on the pump and would have increased pump pressure as the hose blow off the air fitting the first time I spun the high volume pump with the electric drill. With no hose on the fitting the drill picked up rpm enough that I noticed it while being sprayed by several litres of oil cause I was standing over the air fitting. But again I couldn't measure pressure so I can only go off what I felt which is pretty hard to explain on the internet.

 

But even after all this focus on the high volume pump it needs to be remembered that I had zero trouble doing the factory pump which still pumped 5 litres in 15 seconds at around1800prm.

[ando76 4,354]

Wasted energy for zero result - the high volume oil pump - not your test wagoon. 

 

For your next test and to make an even bigger mess.  Hook up an oil pump and pickup onto a 'short' engine with the sump removed.  Place a decent volume of oil into a pan below the pick up.  Now turn the oil pump and watch the leakage and watch how quickly you can empty that pan. 

 

It makes a really big mess but it also tells you where all the oil 'leaks' from in an engine - and that's without taking into account windage.  Yes I have done this test.  It really helped me with my sump and windage tray design.

[gerg 10,871]

Bit off topic.. But a bloke at work was chasing a low oil pressure problem on a freshly built red 6 out of an XU1. He used an old gas cylinder filled with oil and pressurised it with air, piped it into a dummy plate where the oil pump bolts on. Oil comes out of all the orifices Turned out the lifter bores were cactii (very old block but a genuine HP so it's a keeper)

[wagoon 2,429]

Wasted energy for zero result - the high volume oil pump - not your test wagoon. 

 

For your next test and to make an even bigger mess.  Hook up an oil pump and pickup onto a 'short' engine with the sump removed.  Place a decent volume of oil into a pan below the pick up.  Now turn the oil pump and watch the leakage and watch how quickly you can empty that pan. 

 

It makes a really big mess but it also tells you where all the oil 'leaks' from in an engine - and that's without taking into account windage.  Yes I have done this test.  It really helped me with my sump and windage tray design.

I think I will pass on doing anymore tests, I have ruined a t-shirt and a pair of shorts and wasted half my rags cleaning up the bloody mess.

 

Yeah that wasted energy thing really surprised me and it's probably the thing that would turn me off the high volume pump just as much as the over capacity pumping. For me to struggle to control the pump while it's running tells me that it requires A LOT of energy to run it.

[ronny 204]

Really it depends on how much clearance the engine builder set the engine up with

By the sounds of it this motor is built to rev a bit harder than stock?

I personally would prefer to accept dizzy gear wear while the oil is cold and thick

Then when its all stinking hot with thin id prefer more flow

A HV oil pump only pumps about 15% to 20% more oil than a stock pump does

So that would mean that your stock pump is only 15% to 20% away from sucking your oil pan dry? Dont think so

 

Just my opinion

 

​With a stock motor, standard pump definitely 

[ando76 4,354]

Ok ronny I'll just let you know a couple of facts.
 
A standard volume pump is well and truly capable of filling 2.5 and 3 thou clearances (normal RACE clearance) and still producing 65psi of oil pressure at idle.  Give it a rev and it will go up to whatever the relief is set at. Think about the amount of oil that pump is pushing to fill those gaps - and still produce very sound oil pressure.  

I KNOW this because I build race and endurance motor sport engines as part of my business.  I know those tolerances and pressures as I have used them for years. 
 
If that does not demonstrate the ability of the standard volume pump I don't know what does.  Then you want to feed it even more oil.  Nope - complete and utter waste of time and energy. All that extra volume from the big pump will just be going over the internal relief - further stressing the pump and also aerating the oil. 
 
So if you are prepared to accept ;
 
Accelerated dizzy gear wear,
Accelerated dizzy bush wear
Accelerated camshaft gear cut wear
Accelerated oil pump drive wear
Aerated and stressed oil passing thru your engine
Loss of horsepower and
potentially pumping all the oil to the top end and killing your bearings/engine -
 
go for it.  I believe Gerg has already said above how his standard pump on a standard sump - brings on the oil light.
 
As for your comment;

 

"I personally would prefer to accept dizzy gear wear while the oil is cold and thick

Then when its all stinking hot with thin id prefer more flow"

 

Oil viscosity and weights can assist in that regard.  All oil will change viscosity as it gets warm - the amount is controlled by the weight, which also determines flow.

 

Don't get me wrong - I'm not having a go - or a personal attack on you.  I'm just offer my experience as I believe this is an area where people go terribly wrong when building Ford engines and the consequences are not that great for the engine owner.  I have seen way too many failures and near failures because of people fitting high volume pumps to Ford engines.  That is how I know these things and that is why I will always advise very strongly against it. 

[clevocortina 1,109]

wow, thank you guys so much for all the input.

 

Wagoon Loved the mythbusters style test you did. hope you didnt track oil into the house.

 

Sooo this engine I rekon isnt all that flash really. hyd cam, balanced, shot penned and polished rods. the pic in my avatar is the bottom end. pistons flush with the block. there hyperutectic.

 

made a solid 370 hp and 370 ft pounds. with a std ign and just regraphed dizzy. am hoping to pick up more when i spend some coin in that area.

 

actually made more with a 600 holley then a 650.

[wagoon 2,429]

Mate nothing average with your engine setup. Granted it's not 900hp but that engine sounds like it would be fun and not be a pain in the arse that a more powerful setup brings. The comment I made about about the high volume pump weren't aimed at anyone, they are just my thoughts on the topic.

 

Regarding the test no I didnt track oil through the house cause Im still alive. But I did have to change clothes and wash down in the yard before I was allowed into the house haha.

[PRO250 1,506]

Ronny how many KM has your engine in your XE done? how much racing and street driving has it done? its been around for a long time when me and my mate where racing full on it was around and that's been a fair while now since my grey cars been put away 

I looked at your test wagon does the drill even load up In that test? a pump in a engine that's together wpuld almost be deadheading and would fry a 18volt electric drill very fast cause it cant turn it 

how much more force in does it take to turn a HV pump vs a stock one ando?

 

[wagoon 2,429]

When my roller engine was put together we primed the oil pump with the same drill so yeah it does work even on an assembled engine. And the mechanical oil pressure gauge that was hooked up to the engine when the pump was primed by the drill read 80psi.

The drill has 24 settings for the clutch when screwing nails or a straight drive with no clutch for drilling holes with a drill bit. I tried the standard for pump with the clutch and it would drive the pump on 20 but all the testing I did was on the drill setting as the clutch would cut straight in on the HV with the clutch on 24 and not drive it at all.

[ando76 4,354]

I'm out of this whole thread.  Not interested in a pissing competition on whose engine is better and how long it has lasted and what is better and what's not.

 

I've clearly stated the facts and what works and why from my own knowledge bank that, coincidentally is hard fought knowledge that actually makes me money.

 

Do what you want.  Run what you want.  I couldn't give a rats arse.  Not one person has been able to tell me one positive about running a high volume pump.

 

At the end of the day - do what you want.  Make an informed decision.  Those who actually build and race Ford engines in endurance motor sports know what works and what doesn't.

[XFGHIA747 76]

Well said ando.. i know a old guy here in tassie has built over 250 engines in his time in his 60s 90% fords, clevos, crossflows and old ford truck engines, big blocks etc and iv spoken to him about this before and he said years ago he tryed the hole hi-volume crap that killed a few engines. And said he has never used them again in fords as ando said and im talking before i was born, and i know when i built my first crossflow that made 157rwkw 2.77, 4sp running 465 holley i almost had to much oil pressure with a standard pump, years on now if i new then id be sending my pump to ando..

[ronny 204]

Ronny how many KM has your engine in your XE done? how much racing and street driving has it done? its been around for a long time when me and my mate where racing full on it was around and that's been a fair while now since my grey cars been put away 

Its done over 11,000 miles with over 100 passes down the 1/4

I do run a HV pump BUT i do have a pretty big sump

 

I'm out of this whole thread.  Not interested in a pissing competition on whose engine is better and how long it has lasted and what is better and what's not.

 

I've clearly stated the facts and what works and why from my own knowledge bank that, coincidentally is hard fought knowledge that actually makes me money.

 

Do what you want.  Run what you want.  I couldn't give a rats arse.  Not one person has been able to tell me one positive about running a high volume pump.

 

At the end of the day - do what you want.  Make an informed decision.  Those who actually build and race Ford engines in endurance motor sports know what works and what doesn't.

Not sure why you are so revved up, most have agreed with you

But you are not the only person in the world that can build a race motor with endurance

Most race engines will use a HV pump. Why?

[ando76 4,354]

Simply because I am passionate about the oiling systems of Ford engines and I don't want people to f..k it up. 

 

Most 'OTHER BRAND' 'RACE' engines use a HV pump - because they need them.  Ford's don't. 

 

100 passes down the 1/4 at 13 seconds equals about 21 minutes total running time.  How much of that is spent at any decent RPM?  Say 2/3rds that's 7 minutes.  Congratulations you have just built an engine that does about 2 skids or about 3 heats of speedway.  Gee that's tough.  Please. 

 

Yeah I get passionate when people fit a component that will have an adverse effect on their engine.  I thought that was the idea of these forums - to help and offer advice.  That's what the OP asked for.  Funny thing is he has changed the pump. 

 

If you have a couple of minutes spare have a look at Jason Earl's 383AXE burnout car at powercruise $100,000 burnout comp. First aspo car in that comp.  That clevo has a big sump and sits on 8300rpm for 3 minutes at a time.  Done it for years - Guess what pump he runs?  Standard volume - modified as I do them. 

 

But like I said  - you do what you want. 

[Ratsun 3]

Ando76, mate I just joined this forum (hi) to add my experience

I recently had a sbf 363 dart block all the good stuff inside and it was built with a hv pump

The engine was built for burnouts, I did one 2 min skid and the engine grenaded... Why ? Oil starvation

Spun 6 bearings broke one rod knocked the bottom off2 cyls damaged cam, just a mess and I beleive if it were not for the hv pump it would still be going

That was with.003 mains and bigends with 7lt sump

Rebuilding the new engine now but unsure if a std vol mellings is ok? I see there is mellings select pumps but can't see them in Australia?

Anyhow thanks for your time cheers

[ando76 4,354]

Ratsun - welcome first off and bad news about the blow up - but to be expected in the sport - especially when things aren't 100% right.  Like I said above, endurance motor sport engine building is a true test of components and the builder.

 

I use Mellings Std. Volume pumps for my crossflow pumps.  I have found their quality to be well above other brands.  They are supplied with a crap base plate but, so I just replace them with a std. FORD base plate when I am doing all the other mods to the pump.

 

I should think that a Mellings pump would be available.  Performance wholesale, VPW or Precision, any of the big guns should sell one.  If you hit a hurdle I can probably chase one. 

 

If you are looking to give it some RPM, make sure you have enough oil pressure for 10psi per 1000 rpm.  That is if you want to rev to 7000, you will need 70psi and so on.