eattsie9 350 Posted February 1, 2016 Oh my Sent from my HTC_0P6B using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crazy2287 1,886 Posted February 2, 2016 Who's that hot chick second from the right? 3 slydog, gerg and Outback Jack reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerg 10,871 Posted February 2, 2016 I'll bet she's got 80s muff 1 Crazy2287 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crazy2287 1,886 Posted February 2, 2016 Typically, Advance is added as aggressively as possible until the engine reaches the point it is designed to start making power. At this point the curve flattens out, advancing between 0-2º per 1000rpm. For example, at WOT, 800rpm is 5º advance, 1200>12º, 1700>19º, 2000>24º, 2400>26º, 2700>29º, 3000>32º, 3500>33º, 4500>34º, 5500>35º, 6500>35º Sure you can add more timing/be more aggressive at the higher RPM, but at that RPM discerning engine knock from all the other noise becomes difficult, and the advance will be of little to no gain in HP. Rob's car stalls at above what would usually be the "all in" for advance, Totally missing the advantage gained by computer controlled advance during the lower RPM. There is no argument that computer advance will be better, as far as spark management/control goes. Rob just notices no difference, because he stalls the bloody thing at 4500rpm or something equally as ridiculous. /point. can anyone submit a rebuttal? 2 ando76 and matt_lamb_160 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thom 6,650 Posted February 2, 2016 No rebuttal just questions, Would a programmable curve let robs engine hit the converter harder? potentially raising the flash point of the converter slightly? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted February 2, 2016 5500 on the old convertor and a lowly 5200 on the new unit thank you very much Q. Well the old unit will foot brake to 4000ish but flashes to 5500. Havn't stalled the new unit yet but it flashes to 5000 atleast on the dyno. So yes my car go's past peak torque which is prob why it's shows no difference of power on a dyno with a curve or not.Car runs the same numbers on the dyno today but is infact 2/3th's and 2-3mph faster now. Other side is like you said maybe it's going past peak torque and not moving the car well enough so by using the smaller convertor it may bring the 60ft and Et to where it should be? It makes the same power now matter what dyno it is on and no matter what the set up so adjustable or not doesn't matter a pinch. ET is where the car shows improvements or not. That engine/car just hates dyno's and chasing power on a dyno is pointless but AFR and track tuning shows results. It's old school is my only explanation of it and prefers a black top dyno LOL. 2 Crazy2287 and Arrow18 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted February 2, 2016 No rebuttal just questions, Would a programmable curve let robs engine hit the converter harder? potentially raising the flash point of the converter slightly? Annnnnnnd it prob wants the exact opposite ATM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted February 2, 2016 Crazy that was a great explanation of how timing works on a standard engine. Problem is when you start stuffing in compression and big sticks and rev things past 6000 things change very quickly. The benefits as I see it are getting on top of any spark scatter and inconsistent timing as Rob is currently running distributor based timing- which at high rpm is not really consistent. I know a similar engine that responds to timing changes of 1 degree for a 15hp gain or loss and this is not uncommon. I totally agree that robs converter is way past peak torque and could do with altering. I know this as I know the way the cylinder head flows and its percentages. A more efficient cylinder head and manifold will take less timing to run at its optimum than the opposite scenario. Why? Simply because the cylinder fills faster and dumps faster and more completely therefore it takes less advancing of the spark cycle to get complete burn. Of course all that changes as the speed of the engine increases and decreases. Having the ability to tune the engine to each rpm point to make it the most efficient it can (and of course more HP) is a very very good tool to have. Even though this engine is effectively only used in a narrow operating rpm range there are gains to be had from making the engine happy at each rpm point. Those who disregard this, do so at their peril. If you know someone with a dyno (engine or chassis) do yourself a favour and ask them if you can watch them tune a car. It truly is an amazing experience to watch how alteration of different parameters effects car performance. Yes you don't race dynos and big converter cars are a pain on a chassis dyno but it can be done although in reality it is best left to the engine dyno. I love going to the dyno to tune a car. It is a very rewarding experience and you always learn something. I am blessed that I have a dyno operator 200m (as the crow flies) away from my work and the fact that Cliff doesn't mind running the dyno for the stuff I build while I tune. It lets me play with timing and tune I can tell you this is the main reason why I love programmable ignitions so much. I've just seen them make so much power over basic locked timing that I would never go back. It is something I hope to show in reality during this year with the mad scientist crossflow in the shop ute. But once again - each to their own. 2 XPT and Outback Jack reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted February 2, 2016 I know 2 guys with adjustable timing control that are much faster than me and they run locked timing with zero issues. One is blown the othet has 408 windsor cubes of fury. Both run over 30 degrees timing too lol. Its just not the be all end all and often just a money waste for what can be 5hp. Remember my car has run a small 4500 convertor for over a year and it was slower. Adjustable timing didn't help it then either. I know what I see...lol 1 ando76 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerg 10,871 Posted February 2, 2016 On a street car at least, I see the timing curve as the engine's torque curve flipped upside down (give or take), with emphasis on taking out timing where it is most likely to detonate (at peak torque). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted February 2, 2016 Mines a st driven full regoed car too you know...lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wagoon 2,429 Posted February 2, 2016 Give them space boys...... Fight Fight Fight Fight Fight.... as the crowd grows. 4 Thom, eattsie9, ando76 and 1 other reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted February 2, 2016 Street driven. So not held between 4000&7000 all day. Hmm no an advance curve wouldn't help that. Cough cough. Never seen less than a 15hp gain at the tyres over locked and that has transferred over to heat wins and top 3 running and a very happy driver. But hey everyone has the right to do what they want. We better let old mate decide. 1 Outback Jack reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted February 2, 2016 Its got hp and doesn't need a curve to work...lol. Speedway isnt street or drag either and I bet I know how his car will end up just saying. 1 TF_250 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted February 2, 2016 HP and torque is the same whether it's made for the street, drag or speedway. It can't tell where it is going to be used and in my experience more torque and HP is always a good thing. 1 Outback Jack reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted February 2, 2016 For sure...love HP but no one wants to pay for it. Thats why the TFI and MSD works so well on a street car.Way cheaper and never heard a single complaint from any one who converted there's. That said for fuel economy and total driving pleasure programmable with start retard and stuff would be nice,but the engine would have to warrant it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted February 2, 2016 Tell me about it. Everyone wants 250+ @ the wheels but not too many have the coin to make it happen. Never mind 1 slydog reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eattsie9 350 Posted February 3, 2016 What coil do people run with these? I'm sure I've seen it somewhere on here but can't find it Sent from my HTC_0P6B using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wagoon 2,429 Posted February 3, 2016 Here's a link to the coil http://m.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8253 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eattsie9 350 Posted February 3, 2016 Good stuff, thank you Sent from my HTC_0P6B using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt_lamb_160 252 Posted February 3, 2016 Programmable ignition is not way more expensive anymore and it is better so use it. In saying this, a very high stalled drag car may not see the benefit (as Crazy has said). But, if you do not have a massive (over-stalled) drag car, it is borderline stupid to run locked timing. If you are getting away with it, you must not have enough compression. You can still have an advance curve and use a 6AL or a street fire. 1 XPT reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted February 3, 2016 Yes but you would need to run the xe dizzy with it and put up with the factory curve wouldn't you? 1 slydog reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt_lamb_160 252 Posted February 3, 2016 Yes. Or re-curve it which is a pain to do at home. Even just with the amount of advance (not the rate) adjusted (not hard) it would be better than locked timing in most cases. I don't like those dizzys though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted February 3, 2016 Yeah they are a pain and the price (second hand) that some of the 6al2 programmables are selling for you would be mad not to go that way. 1 Outback Jack reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eattsie9 350 Posted February 5, 2016 Now that this has gone quiet again.. Can someone please confirm for me if there is a version of the 6al that was programmable? This chap reckons his is and I think he might be confused Sent from my HTC_0P6B using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
