Crossflow Build Advice

[Nath 1,975]

I'd be using king bearings tbh

Fair call but the bearings come as part of a kit, just need to know what sizes would be appropriate. Unless there's a major reason why I shouldn't use the ACL ones it's much less hassle to just get everything in one go.

[broken-wheel 659]

I'd be using king bearings tbh

supplier for King? I had to buy 2 sets of ACL to find enough good shells! at least 2-3 shells per set seem to be contaminated

[ando76 4,354]

Precision stock King bearings - way better than acl and acl race. 

[Nath 1,975]

Right...

 

In that case I'll order all the bits from the ACL kit separately without the bearings. Too late now though, gonna have to do it when I get back.

[broken-wheel 659]

Hey Ando, got some contact details for them? Performance Wholesale don't do King! they should!

[ando76 4,354]

got to the website and you may be able to order directly from them.  they have a shed in brissy and on occasion they have sold thru the front door to walk in customers.  Not sure of the address as I order all my bearings through another contact (who gets them from precision).

[broken-wheel 659]

do you use the extreme or normal? there is a huge price difference between them!

 

Mains - $262

Conrod - $158

 

Thats for the Extreme Performance ones

 

The normal ones are less than half price

[ando76 4,354]

I just use their regular bearings - they are an awesome bit of kit in standard form.  I think the extreme are a bit hard but each to their own.

[wagoon 2,429]

http://www.precisionintl.com/

I bought my pistons for my roller from these guys, could have bought them direct but choose to let the machine shop sort it as wasn't sure on which dish was needed. Sent the others back no charge, the pistons were $200 for a set including half decent rings according to machinist but recommended hastings rings to be safe. I have all king bearing in my engine as well which was under $150 for big end, main and cam.

 

I also rang precision for a 2 piece neoprene seal for my engine and only one other place in south east queensland had them and precision were cheaper and closer. Hour after the phone call I had the seals in hand.

[broken-wheel 659]

i'm planning of spraying with 200 shot so the extreme might work better?!

I already installed the ACL cam bearings but never heard of issues with ACL cam bearing as long as they are sized properly

[broken-wheel 659]

http://www.precisionintl.com/

I bought my pistons for my roller from these guys, could have bought them direct but choose to let the machine shop sort it as wasn't sure on which dish was needed. Sent the others back no charge, the pistons were $200 for a set including half decent rings according to machinist but recommended hastings rings to be safe. I have all king bearing in my engine as well which was under $150 for big end, main and cam.

 

I also rang precision for a 2 piece neoprene seal for my engine and only one other place in south east queensland had them and precision were cheaper and closer. Hour after the phone call I had the seals in hand.

I think the extra $100 to buy an E series motor for the crank and another $120 to machine the xflow block is worth it every penny! never seen a 2 piece seal not leak

[ando76 4,354]

You sure you have been putting them in the right way - cause I've used them without issue - the neo 2 piece that is.  you have to make sure you put them in the right way.  some of them have rear marked on them - others don't.  that's the single biggest issue I have encountered with them, incorrect fitment.

 

As for the bearings - yeah your choice.  a 200 shot wont hurt a standard bearing anyway because its such a short duration (off full throttle).  Compare that to a boosted application where the bearing always see extra pressure. Biggest issue would be correct clearancing of everything for either giggle or blown in.

[slydog 7,873]

200 of dope on a 300-350hp engine. 10sec car there if it hooks.  

[broken-wheel 659]

You sure you have been putting them in the right way - cause I've used them without issue - the neo 2 piece that is.  you have to make sure you put them in the right way.  some of them have rear marked on them - others don't.  that's the single biggest issue I have encountered with them, incorrect fitment.

 

As for the bearings - yeah your choice.  a 200 shot wont hurt a standard bearing anyway because its such a short duration (off full throttle).  Compare that to a boosted application where the bearing always see extra pressure. Biggest issue would be correct clearancing of everything for either giggle or blown in.

Yeah I put them the right way, they just don't last but it could be me! i tried with some gasket sealer too and that made it worse. 

I think the giggle gas hits harder than a turbo, I'll try the cheaper ones first then inspect after 5000km and see how it goes. Its a shame as the I never had issues with ACL before and the guys at Performance Wholesale looked at me funny when I opened the pack in front of them and found two shells with impurities in them.

 

200 of dope on a 300-350hp engine. 10sec car there if it hooks.  

 

10sec yes ..... in a perfect world where it hooks, but though a 4 speed it will never hook and gave up on finding a bell housing for a C4 or even a C4 conversion!

[ando76 4,354]

Gee man you must have shit arsely bad luck with the seals.  I'm not so sure on giggle gas hitting harder than turbo but at the end of the day if the tolerances are set to deal with either form of forced induction then the bearings will survive.  I use the standard Kings in all my speedway motors (high rpm for long duration) and have found them to be far superior to ACL and ACL race.  ACL bearings were just too hard and you ended up hurting the crank.

 

Were you looking for a C4- crossflow bellhousing?  I have several up here and complete c4with 6 cylinder bell. 

[broken-wheel 659]

was looking for a complete conversion, PM me some prices as I've got wind of one here and I'm going to have a look at it tonight, it took me years to find a 6 seater sedan but it came with the BW35 which will detonate the moment I put the new motor in, I have a 4 speed here but don't want to cut into the car so the C4 would be the only choice really. What servo's you got there?

[Nath 1,975]

Some news:

 

No bueno with any of the ACL race stuff. They still have some of the standard gasket sets and standard pistons to suit a 250 motor with 250 rods though, which I will pick up as a last resort. They're chasing up some other suppliers to see if anyone has an old dusty set on the back of a shelf but said not to hold my breath.

 

However... One of the other guys in the shop knows someone at a company called Cp-Carillo and reckons they can make the pistons for me. When I mentioned those would be crazy expensive he said they shouldn't be - as they already have all the specs on file and he has a contact there. He said he's dealt with them before and they should be able to do it without me having to sell the car to pay for it. Promised he'd look into it so I'm expecting to hear back from him in a couple of days or so.

 

They also mentioned they'd check out a company called Wyseco for me, who might also be able to find them.

 

Gonna see if old mate across the road knows anything as well.

 

At any rate, if I can't track down any pistons to suit the 200 rods by the end of the week, then I'll just get the standard 250 ones. Won't lose any sleep over it, but I figured anything worth doing is worth overdoing. May as well see what pops up.

 

Just a few questions in the meantime:

 

- Anyone dealt with any of these companies/used their stuff before?

- Anyone know the difference between the standard gasket set and ACL race series one? Do I need anything more than a standard set?

 

- Realistically, how much should I/do I need to have the block bored out? If I can get a set of ACL pistons then I'll just have to bore it to whatever size pistons I can get my hands on, but if I have a choice what should I do? I know I said 60 thou originally, but I read that doesn't leave much meat behind for the future. The block I have is a virgin block so that leaves my options open.

 

Now... time to see if I can sort out the Kings Bearing sets.

[broken-wheel 659]

I used CP pistons before and are very good, same with Wiseco, I like Wiseco a little more as you don't pay extra for features and their pin is lighter than the CP.

 

Used the cheapest head gasket possible, eBay item $45 or something with 12.6 comp and had now issues. Noting wrong with the short rod 250xflow just spend money on good pistons.

 

I'd say save around 1k for machining, depends on what you want done but it ain't cheap when its done right. Ask them to check the block first so you don't pay for work that don't need doing, line bore might not be needed, if it does then it's not cheap as the caps need more time machining. I went 50thou over and had no issues, next time i'll probably go 60thou

 

Good luck finding some ACL pistons for the 200 rods, I threw some 200 rods out the other week when I did a cleanup

[Nath 1,975]

Yeah from what I'm hearing they're next to rocking horse shit and unicorn meat on the shelf. Still, if I can get CP pistons made to suit 200 rods I'm not gonna say no...

 

I'm not going to skimp out on gaskets and little stuff. Don't want to be pulling the bastard apart a week after I start driving it because I wanted to save 40 bucks on a head gasket.

 

I would rather leave a bit of meat on there... If it wants another rebuild at some point in its life I'd rather have a bit to work with. Is there really that much benefit from standard or even 20thou over compared to 60thou?

[broken-wheel 659]

you won't get change from 1k for the CP pistons well not much with the low aussie dollar anyway, some people have no concept of cost, to them 1k pistons is the same as buying a slab of white cans, keep that in mind when you deal with suppliers

 

 

50 thou makes a bit of a difference in un-shrouding the valve, plenty of meat with 50thou and the fire ring on the HG is about 70thou so all good imho! you also bring the engine back to square a little which helps on paper

[slydog 7,873]

Buy a off the shelf Spool kit...bolts straight in and you won't break it.Just a forged Ford bottom end is all it is...

[Nath 1,975]

you won't get change from 1k for the CP pistons well not much with the low aussie dollar anyway, some people have no concept of cost, to them 1k pistons is the same as buying a slab of white cans, keep that in mind when you deal with suppliers

 

 

50 thou makes a bit of a difference in un-shrouding the valve, plenty of meat with 50thou and the fire ring on the HG is about 70thou so all good imho! you also bring the engine back to square a little which helps on paper

Cheers, I'll keep that in mind. 50 thou is the golden number if given a choice then.

 

1k is a bit rich for me just for pistons alone. You never know he might be able to get me a deal though. Won't hold my breath if that's the case.

 

 

Buy a off the shelf Spool kit...bolts straight in and you won't break it.Just a forged Ford bottom end is all it is...

2k... Not gonna lie there is some part of me that says fuck it, let's do it. 2k is pricey but not totally outside of the realm of possibility. Depending on how much the machining is going to hurt my wallet it could be an option. I do know a couple of guys who may be able to do it for me unofficially (payment in a selection of fine alcohol ) but I realize that means there's no quality guarantee. Having said that they've both helped me a lot in the past and done a good job. If I have to get it done "properly" then maybe not.

 

I take it I get the added advantage of having all the good gear for the bottom end if I want to slap a turbo on it one day?

[slydog 7,873]

Nope buy a spool kit cos its easier and bolts straight in a standard bore. No fuckin around. To do as I have with Wiseco pistons Scatt rods costs ALOT more than just buying the parts.Pistons are $1300, rods now days are $600 then $300 on bushes for rods and then bore the block for the 60th over pistons and part fill with grout.With machining your well over $1980 for a Spool kit that bolts in.

[Nath 1,975]

Nope buy a spool kit cos its easier and bolts straight in a standard bore. No fuckin around. To do as I have with Wiseco pistons Scatt rods costs ALOT more than just buying the parts.Pistons are $1300, rods now days are $600 then $300 on bushes for rods and then bore the block for the 60th over pistons and part fill with grout.With machining your well over $1980 for a Spool kit that bolts in.

Damn you really do make an impressive argument...

 

First link I found, this is what you meant right? 2k for the kit.

http://www.spoolimports.com/spool-engine-rebuild-kits/ford/250-x-flow-with-200-rod-rebuild-kit/ford-250-xflow-with-200-rod-and-ross-racing-pistons-rebuild-kit

 

Says they only have 40 thou for the bore size.

[wagoon 2,429]

Nath answer this question and be totally honest with yourself don't tell anyone the answer if you don't want but make sure you answer is honestly. Look into the future and see yourself driving your car and look at the tacho. Do you see the tacho revving over 6500rpm for long periods of time? If the answer is yes then look at the forged bottom end either the deal you can get or the spool kit that Sly said about. If you only see 6500rpm and over for a short period of time just run a standard 250 setup and use pistons from here http://www.precisionintl.com/ . I bought my pistons for my solid roller cammed crossflow with 10.5CR that I'm hoping will make over 300RWHP and will have rev limit set to around 6200rpm and they cost me $220 with hastings rings.

Seriously mate everyone likes to rev the engine a bit but you seem like you have a bit of mechanical sympathy so I can't see that you need to go to the expanse of a 200 rod setup. 200 rod setups are the same as e series cranks in a crossflow, if your revving high in the rpm range for long periods of time then it warranted (like a race car) other wise save yourself $2000 and spend that money else where.