Xelisty 366 Posted February 22, 2015 I had not thought too much an the gearbox side. I like manual but for drag consistency and less stress on the driveline auto makes sence. Not keen though and manual will stay. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 XPT reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wagoon 2,429 Posted February 22, 2015 A single rail gearbox is as strong as a top loader when in gear, just have to be gentle between gears. Nothing wrong with a 4 speed just need right tyre size and diff gears just like a 5 or 6 speed. 2 weeks ago I bought an xf single rail as it has passenger side clutch activation, the box came with shifter and clutch cable whole lot for $200. This is the inside of the box The only damage in the box is it has 1 tooth on the reverse gear that has a small chip off an end. 1 NZXD reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XPT 673 Posted February 22, 2015 Great info. It is a intank 044. I will have to change or regulate the pump so I have a low and high side for the surge tank. Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI don't quite follow. Normally when using a surge tank you have a lift pump which fills the surge tank, then you have your main pump which feeds from the bottom of the surge tank along the fuel feed line to your fuel rail, then out of the rail, into your fuel pressure regulator, out of the reg back down the return line, which feeds back into the surge tank. Then the surge tank has an overflow which returns to the main fuel tank, so the surge tank isn't under much pressure at all. Wouldn't you just use your existing 044 as your lift pump to the surge tank and the new pump (044?) pictured as your main pump from the surge tank? Your existing setup is using a FPR it won't run without it. Just the factory one by the looks of the pics in your original thread. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerg 10,871 Posted February 22, 2015 I loves me a good single rail... If you can put up with 4 gears. 1 NZXD reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Xelisty 366 Posted February 22, 2015 Great info. It is a intank 044. I will have to change or regulate the pump so I have a low and high side for the surge tank. Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI don't quite follow. Normally when using a surge tank you have a lift pump which fills the surge tank, then you have your main pump which feeds from the bottom of the surge tank along the fuel feed line to your fuel rail, then out of the rail, into your fuel pressure regulator, out of the reg back down the return line, which feeds back into the surge tank. Then the surge tank has an overflow which returns to the main fuel tank, so the surge tank isn't under much pressure at all. Wouldn't you just use your existing 044 as your lift pump to the surge tank and the new pump (044?) pictured as your main pump from the surge tank? Your existing setup is using a FPR it won't run without it. Just the factory one by the looks of the pics in your original thread. Hi. Yep got that. Just thinking lp from tank and hp from surge tank. All learning so yep thank you. Simple now too. I just read somewhere lift tank to be lower pressure than the main line pump but must of misread. no aftermarket fuel reg with gauge so must be stock. Soon will be upgraded for safety at the drags so I don't have to run 3/4 tank fuel and make sure good pressure Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trev Vaa 1,185 Posted February 22, 2015 XCsedan, would have to disagree with you on the turbo. The 3788r is only slightly larger all round than a 3582r and you only have to look at the mountain of torque at low rpm to see that spool up isn't a problem. different strokes for different folks i spose man. back to back driving these turbos are very different, the 3788 is a noticeable amount more laggy on the street than a 3582, they have both a larger compressor and turbine wheel so its to be expected, i think for this setup it's overkill, personally anyway. single rails, them things be good as paper weights thats it. a tko500 is a straight swap im pretty sure, it is on a cleveland. I would love to see the AFR readings on that top dyno run. Maybe it is running out of fuel and camshaft. I have never seen such an aggressive fall off in HP after peak torque. That HP line should be heading north and in a big way if cam and fuel are in order. If the AFR is all good then I would be having a real good look at your exhaust design. I would be getting a boost gauge into that exhaust, just past the collector and seeing what pressure you are seeing in there. anything above 17psi at full boost point and I would be going bigger and less restrictive. Just my thoughts. i think you're on the money here. i second never seeing a power curve drop off like that without an issue as well. it looks a lot like valve springs or a fuel issue to me. usually spark will start spitting shit everywhere. and too much pressure in the exhaust won't usually do that, it'll just flat line the power band, anything is a possibility though. i'm almost ruling out cam as it would bring on the peak torque earlier.... i'm leaning towards fuel more and more, those injectors are going to be at over 90% capacity at that level, and depending what condition they are in also... they might only be flowing 380cc for all we know. Sorry just read 450cc, but even at that, you should see 600 hp no probs. Stock fuel reg will definitely hold you back. It's not pinging though, so not leaning off from lack of fuel pressure. Will be very interesting after bits are fitted. nope, no way will 450cc see you to 600hp. need at least 750cc to do that on a 6cyl turbo (assuming normal fuel not e85). unless you wind up the fuel pressure to an insane rate (not advisable on anything but IDs) standard reg is going to be holding you back to, that might be causing your issues. i can't work out how your fuel system is set up. at your power level in all seriousness, an AEM 330lph in tank pump will leave you with excess fuel (enough to make around 350rwkw) and you won't need to worry about a surge tank setup, unless you plan on racing it. have you got a dyno sheet over laying boost afr torque and horsepower? it has to be a simple problem but without being there to diagnose it, it makes it a bitch. NT is also the only state i don't know any tuners in.... that and tassy.... but tassys not really part of australia. i don't mean to be rude, but it kind of seems like you've had a lot of different ideas with the project and tried to make them all work together, and skipped the basics of a setup somehow. i am just about guaranteeing the injectors are way out of puff. so to go over the fuel sytem again AEM 330lph in tank pump/aeromotive 340 in tank 1/2" feed line aftermarket boost referenced fuel reg (aeromotive if you can afford it) 3/8" return minimum 750cc injectors (just throw 1000s in there if you plan to ever go e85/big power) might need to upgrade the fuel rail, i'm not sure what they can flow, but i probably would anyway. that will see the fueling side done. do something like that and see what the go is afterwards at the dyno. and remember, use the kiss principle, when you over complicate shit, it all goes to hell. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted February 22, 2015 Plus one for the injectors. I will be going with 1000cc units on mine to future proof it. With the autronic ecu and Ray Hall tuning it I am confident that it will still perform well at idle. I downloaded and printed out a thread from the other forum many years ago when I was thinking of turbo crossflows. It was written by a smart bloke and he recommended 600cc minimum so I am with the fuel being an issue. Same bloke recommended two JIC fittings welded to the factory rail to feed the beast and one in the middle going to a rising rate reg for the return. very simple set up and really bugger all cost. I have seen SARD rising rate regs come up often on Gumtree from unfinished dreams. I'm still not 100% sold on this common idea of return from the rail going to the surge tank - but everyone seems to do it. I will not be doing it on mine as I don't want hot fuel return to the surge/swirl. if you are worried about the engine emptying the surge or the lift pump not providing enough volume to keep the swirl full, then fix that issue. I'd rather have hot, under pressure fuel being released into a larger volume of fuel (at the bottom of the tank so it doesn't aerate) than into a swirl, but each to their own. 2 gerg and Fingers reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerg 10,871 Posted February 22, 2015 Yeah you're right XC, As a general rule, you divide the cc by 5 and multiply by # of cyls, that gives you absolute max hp capability. This only applies to nat asp motors though. I forgot that turbos have a different formula expressed as a higher bsfc. 1 Olive Xm reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XPT 673 Posted February 23, 2015 A mate a had a BA XR6T manual making 315rwkw with Bosch green 42lb or 440cc injectors, just thought I'd throw that in. I will probably go for Siemens Deka 60lb injectors for mine. Especially at the price you can get them. 1 slydog reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted February 23, 2015 Probably a bit more efficient head/manifold on the barra so less fuel required???? Are those siemens deka units low impedance or high?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Xelisty 366 Posted February 23, 2015 Wow lots of great info. I will check the fuel line size but mike did increase them I know. The valve springs are brand new psi double so good spring. I can help much on the current fuel reg set up but by the invoice no extra regulator listed. No clue as to what the current set up is but will get Danny to go through it to check the pints you listed above. I have asked mike about afr and boost reference on the dyno runs today. See how he goes. Either way I can take it to the uni and throw it on their dyno. I am assuming new injectors means tuning which as you know big problem up here s I may not be able to do anything anyway. I have all the ideas and thoughts listed and will sit down with Danny and see where we go. Future will be built engine and likely fuel change. The car spools up very quick and very little lag so the bigger turbo seems to work here. My old falcon turbo 20 years ago with the T04 was bad. Nothing them wham. The one I have now delivers very similar to late model xr6t Cheers for the great info Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XPT 673 Posted February 23, 2015 Probably a bit more efficient head/manifold on the barra so less fuel required???? Are those siemens deka units low impedance or high?? They're high impedance Ando, also available in 80lb/875cc. About the barra head/manifold yeah you would be right about better efficiency, but how much more efficient? Surely not the best part of 100rwkw more from almost the same size injectors? Not to mention coil on plug ignition. You would have to imagine there would still be a bit more in Xelisty's current injectors. Edit: I guess we can all speculate until the cows come home, One thing we can all agree on is that it needs to go back on the dyno. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted February 23, 2015 Yeah I'm not certain on the injectors - I really think they are maxed out or damn close to being. I am also not certain on de-tuning the engine to save the box. I think it is more of a case that Mike Vine (who is no dill) has given the customer what they wanted - a strong street tune to suit a mostly standard motor. Mind you 16psi is up there but the tune must be good as it has not killed it yet. I think it is a case of asking the engine to do something it was not set up to do. In my mind the way it is now would be great on the street. But yeah agreed - put the sucker on the dyno and lets have a look at those AFR's. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trev Vaa 1,185 Posted February 24, 2015 A mate a had a BA XR6T manual making 315rwkw with Bosch green 42lb or 440cc injectors, just thought I'd throw that in. I will probably go for Siemens Deka 60lb injectors for mine. Especially at the price you can get them. thats not adviseable on a B/F series, all the big tuners around the country recommend swapping injectors out at 280rwkw to either the 60lb or ID1000s, fuel pressure would have to be wound up a fair bit, and duty cycle's probably above 90% to achieve that. i stick to ID, way better spray pattern than the bosch or Siemens. everyone has a budget though. yeah your right about the BSFC of nat asp vs supercharged vs turbo, theres about a 20% difference between the 3. turbos use a more fuel than a naturally aspirated or supercharged engine does when making power. keen to see what comes of the results of this though, wonder if its all something none of us haven't thought of yet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Xelisty 366 Posted February 24, 2015 Yeah I'm not certain on the injectors - I really think they are maxed out or damn close to being. I am also not certain on de-tuning the engine to save the box. I think it is more of a case that Mike Vine (who is no dill) has given the customer what they wanted - a strong street tune to suit a mostly standard motor. Mind you 16psi is up there but the tune must be good as it has not killed it yet. I think it is a case of asking the engine to do something it was not set up to do. In my mind the way it is now would be great on the street. But yeah agreed - put the sucker on the dyno and lets have a look at those AFR's. I have said it before but the car drives bloody great and I am very happy. Without the dyno I would have never even looked. You see something and you look at ways to improve, nothing more., Got some feedback from mike. 1. No info recorded what the cam or chain was. (As it chewed through dizzy gears until I got the steel dizzy gear likely aftermarket but I will check) 2. He Suggested roller cam and chain, billet hydraulic turbo cam and roller rockers as a upgrade. 3. When the diff was rebuilt Rear axles are standard (so some planning needs doing there if any more power is going to be increased for drag racing) 4. He Recommended a supra turbo 5 speed as he has had some good power early falcons high output cars with good results from the boxes. Very reliable and basic change. 6. Any change to the existing fuel pressure control will dramatically affect engine tune and power. Basically he said leave it unless other things change. 7. Swirl pot to be 4 lines to it and run efi suction filter between pot and pump 8. He Suggest only change the chain, rockers and cam. (I still need to tune with the cam change) He did not mention about ignition upgrades or injectors or what fuel regulator set up is. . (Either way When things change I will up injectors size, fuel regulator and ignition but no tuner so kinda pointless for now) Afr dyno sheet below. No boost available to be overlayed but advised ramping rate with positive boost from 900rpm with 7psi at 1800 rising with rpm up to 16psi at 4000 and hold 16 psi to 5000 rev limit. Haltec boost control. Nice info to know and got a good list of parts to buy http://s277.photobucket.com/user/HSVListy/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsjtjv53aa.jpg.html Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Xelisty 366 Posted February 24, 2015 Sorry try again Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XPT 673 Posted February 24, 2015 Running very rich there mate for most of the top end Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wagoon 2,429 Posted February 24, 2015 What tyre size do you have/ did you have on that dyno run as can calculate rpm from speed on the print out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerg 10,871 Posted February 24, 2015 I'm wondering if the cam needs retarding , as the boost comes on strong higher in the rpm range, like the engine is the restriction. Could the valves be shutting too early for the engine to be able to effectively use the boost, causing the manifold pressure to rise? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XPT 673 Posted February 24, 2015 thats not adviseable on a B/F series, all the big tuners around the country recommend swapping injectors out at 280rwkw to either the 60lb or ID1000s, fuel pressure would have to be wound up a fair bit, and duty cycle's probably above 90% to achieve that. Are you talking auto or manual for 280rwkw? The dyno sheet he got with the car was from Silverwater Automotive Services. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Xelisty 366 Posted February 24, 2015 What tyre size do you have/ did you have on that dyno run as can calculate rpm from speed on the print out. 130 km/h was about 3200 rpm. Makes lots of torque very low. They did not have that overlay with speed/rpm/boost., Would be good though. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trev Vaa 1,185 Posted February 24, 2015 that's running rich but doesn't explain the power.... maybe it is the cam after all. Are you talking auto or manual for 280rwkw? The dyno sheet he got with the car was from Silverwater Automotive Services. either, anything north of that they recommend injector upgrade, james runs ID1000s in his at 320rwkw my 180 made 220rwkw on 440cc injectors but the fuel pressure was above 65psi base pressure, then boost referenced. and i was still at 95% injector cycle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted February 24, 2015 That afr reading is seriously wrong. 12.8 is usual target and that will be hurting power big time as it is well below 11 which is rich as hell. TO make that power go up you need to trim those mixtures or perhaps put a bit of timing back into it. The load on your gearbox will be from the torque so once it's passed the shift and revving out, i.e. the HP has taken over, then the load should be reduced - in theory. I would not be bothering with upgrading that fuel system until you tune that afr to correct specs. Then you might find that you need to upgrade. Some time spent in the fuel and timing maps within the Haltec should have it sorted fairly quickly and the HP will rise. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerg 10,871 Posted February 24, 2015 I'd be aiming at something a bit richer than 12.8 Ando, it's a turbo after all. Agreed on the gearbox, it's torque that kills them, not power. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted February 24, 2015 Really - I would have thought that it would have been the same. If anything the more fuel would be bad for the turbo as it would be increasing the heat in the charge and making it spool harder. I know the 'anti-lag' on the autronic dumps fuel and reduces timing to give the turbo a hot charge to help it spool up. why the difference for a Turbo engine in afr? My turbo knowledge is limited - that's why I am building my turbo crossflow project. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
