Making power above 4000rpm on a turbo crossflow

[Xelisty 366]

Hi

 

Continue on from the other thread. After some ideas for the future to come up a decent plan for the next stage of the build. For now just looking at ideas to improve power from the 3700to 4500 mark.

Just to clarify it is 12 months out before I move on it but if there is some checks or ideas to improve higher rpm power without changing exiting I would be interested.

 

Dyno sheet. FYI 295rwhp is at 3200 rpm and hovers in part there until 3700 then goes down.

Boost is ramp rate to rpm from 1psi up to 16psi at 4000rpm. Rev limit 5000

 

 

Thread here

http://www.ozfalcon.com.au/index.php?/topic/3147-yellow-xe-turbo-sedan-crossflow-spac/page-3

 

Bit of a walk around video

 

 

It does double up a bit

 

 

Specks

 

Brand new Garret GT3788R turbo

 

Duel spring valves pac brand

 

Custom exhaust manifold

 

Custom modified ea inlet manifold

 

42mm waste gate

 

Turbine spacer plate

 

New Bosch high torque starter motor

 

Custom big thick PWR intercooler

 

450cc fuel injectors x6

 

Braided oil turbo lines and fittings

 

New head studs, heavy duty

 

New custom radiator mounts

 

Intake / intercooler silicon hoses, fittings, clamps etc

 

Large PWR engine oil cooler

 

Oil cooler Braided lines, fittings etc

 

Over boost safety valve

 

Intake unloader valve

 

3 inch Stainless exhaust and new muffler.

 

K and N filter

 

Heat shields

 

Spark plug heat covers

 

Upgraded coil and distributer

 

 

New Haltech ECU with full wiring harness including working instruments with existing dash

 

Haltec senders and sensors fitted instead of stock

 

Custom throttle cable

 

Recon Power Steering pump

 

New alternator

 

Bosch 044 fuel pump

 

New ignition module

 

New front strut bar bushes

 

New brake pads all round

 

New heater tap

 

New radiator hoses

 

Autometer boost gauge and pod

 

Reco LSD 2.9.1 rear diff, LSD and reco axle assembly

 

Boost control solenoid

 

New spark plugs and leads

 

Map sensor

 

New upgraded fuel lines, hoses and fittings from tank

 

New fuel return

 

Upgraded fuel filter

 

New power steering box, ac etc, all round disks etc.

 

 

A whole stack and a half of labour for manifolds make up, turbo fitment, ECU work, welding and all other mechanical work

 

Basically 1/2 a new car

 

The gear that was on the car when purchased

 

Recently rebuilt engine (stock internal)

 

Disk brakes all round

 

5 speed

 

Heavy duty clutch

[PRO250 1,506]

I think it needs more camshaft if the valve springs are keeping up

list cam specs?

[XPT 673]

Yep, the Turbo, wastegate and other hardware look well and truly up to the task of making big power. What about a cdi ? Is it just an upgraded coil? Down the track you could look at upgrading the intake manifold but that wouldn't be the most limiting factor by any means.

[Xelisty 366]

The valve springs are psi brand too.

Cam is not known which is a shame. Certainly aftermarket.

 

 

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[Xelisty 366]

Yes upgraded coil. Bosch or something. It did not come up during the build as a issue. Just replaced. I see the ice brand everywhere but no ideas if that is a issue. I will chat to Danny next time the car is in there as I need to get thermo fans fitted. Might do a quick investigate.

 

 

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[Trev Vaa 1,185]

better ignition and more breathing, cam will help a lot. assuming your not floating, that turbo is way to big tbh.

GTX3576 or 3582 will see in excess of 400rwkw. with better drivability. can even go a .82 rear housing if you wanted something that spools super easy if you were going for sub 300rwkw
 

contact camtech cams, tell them what you have, get them to grind a cam to suit.
 

FYI 450cc injectors will end up being your limit, they will be close up around 80+% duty cycle now, move up to ID725/850/1000s, they'll idle like stock if your tuner knows anything, and then you're good for whatever power you want to make.

 

whats done to the bottom end?

looking at the graph something is definitely up.

 

if it's spark, put a stronger ignition system on it, depending what model haltech you have (im hoping for elite 2500 here) go individual coil setup like an LS, you can try closing the gap up, at 0.6mm gap it definitely shouldn't blow out even if you're running a single coil so long as it's decent.

 

i'll think of more in the morning, im knackered now. best of luck.

[Xelisty 366]

I know for future the injectors need doing but for tuning reasons they were selected and ok for the current configuration.

Most things were done to future proof so when the times comes saves double handling.

Bottom end is stock but the ramping rate boost it is only higher boost for a shirt cycle.

 

 

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[Xelisty 366]

Thanks for the great info. Good reading.

Haltec is a e6x.

 

Just to clarify the car drives bloody fantastic and pulls like a train. Under foot you don't really notice any real change in the higher rpm but by the dyno more improvements could be made.

 

Thanks heaps for the time.

 

Long day here too. Tired of looking at turbines. (The really big jet version that is )

 

 

 

 

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[XPT 673]

XCsedan, would have to disagree with you on the turbo. The 3788r is only slightly larger all round than a 3582r and you only have to look at the mountain of torque at low rpm to see that spool up isn't a problem.

[PRO250 1,506]

Its just the cam size, you need more camshaft

Most will not fit a larger cam with a turbo as there is no need for it, they pull like a freight train anyway so no need for a big unit. My new cam for my car is not very big at all and im still worried it will work past 6000 and I don't think the bottomend will take over 6000 and last 

[NZXD 2,328]

Just out of couriosity, given that the 250 crossie has a near on 4 inch stroke do you guys consider piston speed when revving up over 6k rpm?

 

I just started reading up on it, so thought I'd ask.

[wagoon 2,429]

Certainly sounds like you have most stuff covered. 16psi is fair bit for standard spec engine, do you know if the cylinder has had any work? What is the cylinder head?

[Xelisty 366]

Stock heads bar double springs.

 

It is impressive on spoil up.

Couple of vids anyway.

Other thoughts on improvement ideas let me know.

 

You can hear the change above the 4k mark on short shift

 

Normal shift

 

Short shifting

 

 

 

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[wagoon 2,429]

Silly question time, have you turned down the boost to see if it still happens at the same point? I'd turn it down to around 7 or 8 psi and see what happens.

[Xelisty 366]

No clue how and would not be something I would do myself.

 

It was built in Brisbane and I'm in darwin and I just paid money as things were done on it.

Time is not something i have a great deal of.

 

I'm been the ls1 v8 Holden scene for 15 years with circuit racing so still learning the crossflow over the last 12 months.

Sold the gts so Needed a change and always wanted to go back to turbo xe.

I will table the ideas here and discuss them plus get to chasing info.

 

Cheers

 

 

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[wagoon 2,429]

If you google boost tee it will tell you what you need to know. Its a very basic thing then you just need a boost gauge and your away.

[ricktewagon 39]

Heres my Cam specs & Dyno if it helps. Chinese Turbo, ported alloy head & port matched exhaust & inlet with stock manifolds, 1000cc injectors, bottom end lightened balanced etc, oil cooler Haltech ps1000ecu, 16psi.

 

 

[Xelisty 366]

Thanks heaps. Nice comparison.

I will chat to the local mechanic and do some checks.

 

 

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[slydog 7,873]

Tell Danny I will be up in June/July and I can help him change the cams over for ya  

[ando76 4,354]

I would love to see the AFR readings on that top dyno run.  Maybe it is running out of fuel and camshaft.  I have never seen such an aggressive fall off in HP after peak torque.  That HP line should be heading north and in a big way if cam and fuel are in order.

 

If the AFR is all good then I would be having a real good look at your exhaust design.  I would be getting a boost gauge into that exhaust, just past the collector and seeing what pressure you are seeing in there.  anything above 17psi at full boost point and I would be going bigger and less restrictive. 

 

Just my thoughts.

 

 

[gerg 10,871]

Yeah peak power at 3800 means something funky going on there. It should really just start getting going by then. 1000 cc is a serious size injector, i would imagine that they'd support upwards of 1200 hp on a 6 cyl. Just noticed no fuel reg in your list of specs. Is it a rising rate, and if so, what ratio?

[Xelisty 366]

No fuel reg.

all the fuel lines have been upgraded to larger as is the high flow pump.

Exhaust is 3 inch with 4 inch after turbo and very good stainless large muffler. It has been designed for future power increase.

I have got the below gear to go in over the coming month so I will get some data collected. I will do another dyno run after the reg gets put in and get the afr logged.,

I will call mike vine as he may well have tuned power out of it as he was worried about the t5 gearbox strength.

He is likely right mind you.

He did the car as a driver / streeter not outright power as the engine is still stock, although rebuilt..

Now I have some ideas I will do some chasing around.

Thanks again.

 

 

 

 

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[gerg 10,871]

Sorry just read 450cc, but even at that, you should see 600 hp no probs. Stock fuel reg will definitely hold you back. It's not pinging though, so not leaning off from lack of fuel pressure. Will be very interesting after bits are fitted.

[XPT 673]

It would make sense to tune power out of it with the T5 behind it. Maybe they did this by retarding the ignition in the top end, though surely you would run less boost to limit the power and have a more usable rev range? Otherwise you have to run a very tall diff ratio to make use of the narrow "power band".

 

Minimum boost level will be determined by the wastegate spring rating and the physical size of the wàstegate which at 42mm shouldn't be a problem. If you are running a 16psi wastegate spring it will need to be changed to a lighter spring to be able lower the boost. If you already have a lighter spring then you will be able to lower the boost pressure through the Haltech software. Your exhaust size is fine.

 

Like mentioned earlier a CDI of some sort would be worthwhile, like an MSD 6A etc (6AL not needed as the Haltech would do the rev limiting).

 

If you want to make more power then you would also have to seriously think about a gearbox upgrade. Obviously the usual auto options, with a manual you could go a few ways. A toploader is probably out of the question as it's only a 4 speed. A Tremec TKO, T56 or Toyota r154 (Supra Turbo) with a Dellow or possibly CRS bellhousing.

 

A trip to the dyno will point you in the right direction.

 

So you already have an 044 is that running with the stock in tank pump as an inline lift pump?

[Xelisty 366]

Great info.

It is a intank 044.

I will have to change or regulate the pump so I have a low and high side for the surge tank.

 

 

 

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