Meth drinkin turbo crossy

[XPT 673]

AN and JIC are the same I believe, just that AN have to meet a higher standard for aviation. And the dash number denotes 1/16 for the OD of the tube so -8 is 8/16 or 1/2" tube if you didn't know already. I'm using swagelok for my fuel fittings

[ando76 4,354]

yeah JIC and AN are the same just different ways of reference.  IMHO they are the best for auto applications as they seal without the need for sealant and allow for easy removal and re-install of fittings with no chance of leak.  all the engines I work on have AN fittings - particularly to the carb, most of which I have paid for myself as it just saves so much time and money.

 

It just makes it soo much easier to tune a car when you can undo a fitting and make the change and then tighten it back up and not have to worry about the fitting ever coming loose or leaking.  You just can not achieve that with a hose clamp. 

 

JIC is a common hydraulic term and most fittings are metal and like you say gerg they just aren't as pretty as some of the AN alloy fittings you can get.  also the AN style fitting usually have tighter 'true' 90 degree bends, which is important when space is limited. 

 

AN actually stands for army navy on a side note.  but I have now taken this thread way off topic.  Sorry butch.

 

P.S. Summit racing has it's own brand of AN fittings and they are way cheaper than aeroflow etc. and work just as good. 

[Butcha 111]

Summit racing stuffs pretty goo cheap had one fitting -10 come with no thread tapped. For $4 ill forgive.

 

Their push lock hose has stood up well to the meth and e85 I run but has gone a bit hard now but that is norm for meth.

 

Got most of me fuel stuff.

Top goes back to tank and middle is return from reg. See how it goes gotta find room to mount the mongrel now

 

Intake pipes are done need to tidy things up a bit but you get the idea. Wastegate is on also.

[ando76 4,354]

smashing it out Butch.  great stuff.  Let summit know about the fitting.  just send them an email and I'm sure they will send you a new one.  I had a box get damaged in transit (damn I-parcel - never again) and I lost a fitting.  Let them know via e-mail with a couple of photos of the box.  New fitting sent that day - no questions asked.  fitting cost $6 and they paid the $20 freight.  Same with a vac guage that turned up already reading 4 psi. sent email - new one sent that day.  awesome service. 

[Butcha 111]

Sat the engine in the car and made a 3" dump pipe. Finished off some hoses. Hopefully ill get the fuel system plumbed in and electrics done tomorra

[nos2 751]

No stuffing around mate, love it!

[PRO250 1,506]

HEHE this is going to boot

[Butcha 111]

Didnt get too much done today ended up Fittin a snorkel to a ranger.

 

Anyone know if a TPS off an ed-el fit on the xf throttlebody? The one I got is rooted

[ltdute 2]

yeah mate just got to re drill the two bolt holes that hold it on, its what I have on mine. the xf's is a throttle position "switch" not a sensor which is why it wont be working with your MS

[ltdute 2]

shit actually I think mine is an EB one, not sure if they are the same

[adrianphu123 73]

yep, from the workshop manual, XF TPS:

 

At closed throttle ------ 0.5v - 1.2v

     open throttle-------- 4v - 5v

[Butcha 111]

Cheers ill chase one down from the wreckers. the manifold I got is off a fairlane if it makes a difference. It is open ciruit thoughout its movement.

[Mixalis 266]

This is going to be spastic!

 

Very interested to see how you end up going on the tune side of things. Have heard a few people make (very) general statements calling E85 a street able methanol fuel; having similar properties when it comes to octane, cooling etc. Point I'm trying to make is it will be awesome to see how you get this all to work on what is a pretty hi comp motor for a boost build.

 

Something like this would be a good gauge for people wanting to do hi comp E85 turbo builds for street engines for example. So you decided against running that water injection you were saying much earlier? Just going to use the methanol to cool the charge?

 

Keep it up mate really good build!

[Butcha 111]

another unproductive day. Gotthe fuel system bolted in still need some 90 degree fittings to finish this off. Dunno where im gunna put me shoppin now.

 

Once I run the lines to the fuel rail and cut my electrical cable to legnth the engine can go back on the stand and finish the wastgate to dump pipe and weld in egt and ego bungs. Can be stripped and cleaned for assembly then.

[Butcha 111]

Had a little squiz of the tune side of things an holy shit. Cool stuff but is there really a need for a 16x16 timing table?!? just lock the bastard at 30. To be honest Mixalis i think someone could run this setup on E85 no problems and the only thing i would do different if it was on e85 is remove one of them bosch 044's. I will probably target air fuel and timing like the two tables below. Way out of my ball park so if youse have any input id love to hear it

Timing

Afr

 

As for the extra spray nozzle, i think i will run it to be on the safe side. The issue i see is that with the injectors at the port right shooting right at the valve it does not have much time at 5 to 6k rpm to remove latent heat from the air and there is no way of measuring temperature of air past there. The only way i will know that it is too hot is when a hole magically appears in the middle of the piston. To simplify the system i will just run a tee off my fuel pressure guage hose which is a -4 to a fuel solenoid (nos) to the nozzle which has jets in it. Will Prob start with a .035 jet and just keep an eye on logs and see how they go and up the jets as needed. Water would prob remove more heat in the chamber but then i'd need another tank ect etc these god damn fittings are costing enough as it is. If it was a carbd system or a Mechanical Fuel injected or had staged fuel injectors further away from the cylinder then no it would not be needed but being so close to the cylinder it will be a bit of a gamble i think. To simplify think i will have it turn on above 3500 rpm.

 

To my Knowlege...Methanol is very resistant to detonation BUT very prone to Preignition two totally different things. An engine that has failed due to detonation usually has cracked pistons, burnt pistons at the edge near the bore and maybe hammered bearings. Engine failure due to preignition will almost always be a hole in the middle of the piston. Usually comes from sparkplug glowing red igniting the fuel. Pre-ignition can lead to detonation though. If i can keep the chamber temps down it should live. Maybe.

[XPT 673]

To keep the intake temps consistent and still keep the inlet tract short you could just run a water to air intercooler. Something like a PWR barrel cooler, there are much cheaper copies available nowadays. Meth injection seems like a lot of trouble when you have to muck around with nozzle placement etc. I don't know how much you have to inject to effectively cool the charge, but wouldn't now adding an air/fuel mixture to an unevenly distributed manifold lead to uneven AFRs across the cylinders? In the real world it may work fine and I may be completely shot down in flames, but intercooling would take a lot of the guesswork out of it all. Just my 2c

 

To trigger the meth injection wouldn't you be better off triggering it with boost pressure rather than RPM?

[ando76 4,354]

Butch from my understanding of the XF style EFI plenum and runners the centre two cylinders tend to get fed very well because of their proximity to the top plenum and the outside cylinders suffer due to this.

 

In a boosted application this could possibly be worse or maybe it might even things out, but really if air is like water and takes the path of least resistance I think the centre two will still get more of the charge. 

 

My concern is that if you put an extra squirter into the system this may make the air distribution problem worse and you will end up with really uneven AFR's and EGT's. 

 

At this stage of the game would it be too much work to run a log style manifold off an XG, EB etc.?  I think that would be a far better way to go and leaves room for an intercooler at a later date.  You will probably be able to re-use those silicon hoses.  A side benefit of this is that it will make tappet checks a whole lot easier. 

 

It is my understanding that running the log style manifold just involves a bit of cutting and shutting and welding to the existing XF first section. 

 

I know its is more work but I think it will be a better way to go.  The longer inlet tract being exposed to the air going past as you blast down the straight would also cool the inlet tract. 

 

Either way mate you are smashing this out.  Great effort so far.  You aiming to have this in for the next meeting?  I think it is the Northern Nationals.

[Butcha 111]

I think I will run it as it is to get it going other wise itll sit in the shed and the year will be over before it sees sunshine. Plus this thing starting to burn a little too much coin. I did plan to have it ready for the next meeting but this is getting more and more unlikely. Wouldnt the distributon be a non problem as the fuel is injected to the port, nowhere for the fuel to shear or fall out of suspension?

 

I think liquid intercooling will be sufficient afrs will be on the richside. Whats a little more fuel. Not really concerned where that fuel goes just as long as the air going to the cylinder is sensible temp. The datalogs will show if im wrong I guess.

 

Xpt to be honest I dont know what the boost will be doing during a race particularly a wet track which we get to damn often where you are floating across the track with no traction. Maybe airtemp and rpm switch be a more sensible option.

[Butcha 111]

Will prob start wiring today, how wire the injectors into two banks? 135 and 246? 123 456? Doesnt matter?

[gerg 10,871]

On a setup like yours, not really because you're going to be at or near max duty cycle anyway so the injectors will be more like 6 hoses that are on all the time. Injector phasing and sequential timing are purely for economy and emissions reasons.

[ando76 4,354]

I think I will run it as it is to get it going other wise itll sit in the shed and the year will be over before it sees sunshine. Plus this thing starting to burn a little too much coin. I did plan to have it ready for the next meeting but this is getting more and more unlikely. Wouldnt the distributon be a non problem as the fuel is injected to the port, nowhere for the fuel to shear or fall out of suspension?

 

I think liquid intercooling will be sufficient afrs will be on the richside. Whats a little more fuel. Not really concerned where that fuel goes just as long as the air going to the cylinder is sensible temp. The datalogs will show if im wrong I guess.

 

Xpt to be honest I dont know what the boost will be doing during a race particularly a wet track which we get to damn often where you are floating across the track with no traction. Maybe airtemp and rpm switch be a more sensible option.

It a problem in nat asp application because to the air flow - that is the centre two cylinders get all the flow - more flow equals leaner mixture on those cylinders and fatter on the others.  Maybe it will be less of a problem with air being forced in.  I seem to recall something on the other forum about the bunch of banana set up with the plenum above being a problem.  I'll see if I can dig it up.  I think it is only a problem when you start looking for big numbers.

I was referring more to the additional squirter as I imagine will be going into the plenum above of the rocker or at the throttle body?? In which case if the centre two cylinders get all the flow then they will get more of the additional fuel than the others. 

Just thinking out aloud and remember I have zero turbo experience at the moment. 

[XPT 673]

Xpt to be honest I dont know what the boost will be doing during a race particularly a wet track which we get to damn often where you are floating across the track with no traction. Maybe airtemp and rpm switch be a more sensible option.

No worries, the only reason I suggested triggering with boost pressure (map sensor) is because that is when the engine is under load and "needs it". Triggering with RPM might be ok for WOT under full load but say you're free revving it ,downshifting into a corner etc it might cough and splutter from being too rich. If you set it up through the ecu outputs to open the fuel solenoid at say 2psi you will always be cooling the charge at the right time.

 

Edit: I guess you could use that in conjunction with a temp sensor so if you get a really cold/hot day it would change the switch point.

 

Regardless of all that it's going to be a very fast car, and heaps of fun.

[gerg 10,871]

You can get yourself a "Hobbs" switch, infinitely adjustable and available in vacuum and pressure and screw into a 1/8" NPT thread. You'll obviously want the pressure one.

[adrianphu123 73]

regarding the manifold, XF.0747 was running a turbo through the standard manifold, no idea what work was done to it inside though

[ando76 4,354]

Yeah that's cool adrianphu - but I don't think he was squirting extra fuel into the plenum. 

 

Like gerg's idea of the hobbs switch for triggering the squirter.  that way you could adjust it to suit boost level.  I was looking at a hobbs switch to trigger the single step retard on the MSD 6 plus ignition I run on the burnout ute for the meth draw thru turbo but I think I might just put in my 6AL2 from the race car and be done with it.