agentkiwi 110 Posted July 1, 2014 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/131193161970?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 Hi guys. Can someone basically explain to me the concept of hydraulic lifters & is there a benefit over standard? Is there a straight forward application for the 250 crossflow such as those above? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted July 1, 2014 Direct swap over but your car already has them bro... 1 agentkiwi reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wagoon 2,429 Posted July 1, 2014 How I understand the lifters is that there are 3 types of hydraulic lifters: standard hydraulic lifters which as Sly said is in a standard engine and are the ones in the add anti-pump hydralic lifters which are used in a higher revving engine hydraulic roller lifters which can only be used with a hydraulic roller cam shaft. 1 agentkiwi reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted July 1, 2014 Sorry bro...I seemed to skim it without taking enough notice.Ryan has it covered though. Standard Hydraulic lifters work on hydraulic camshafts and use pre-load via hyd pressure in said lifter and mating to camshaft surface instead of clearance like a solid lifter.They are pretty much maintenance free for there life time.They provide years of quiet trouble free service in most standard to mild set-ups.another little known fact is that they actually spin with the fall/curvature ground into the camshaft.If you pop your rocker cover off,start the engine and a pushrod/s IS NOT turning it is or has wiped a cam lobe or lifter. Anti pump up units are for high revving hyd camshafts that need more lifter control where pressure and high rpm pushes all the oil out of em and they loose control and don't follow the cam lobe anymore.A anti pump up control the oil loss to stop this issue. Hyd roller lifters are used in most modern engines to provide quiet valve trains and maintenance free usually for there duration.These use a small HYD cavity to to keep a quiet yet efficient valve train. Solid lifters use a clearance set between the rocker and valve top,set in th's.A tighter setting makes torque and a wider setting makes HP. Hope this helps bro... 2 agentkiwi and wagoon reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agentkiwi 110 Posted July 1, 2014 Yes it does. Cheers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wagoon 2,429 Posted July 1, 2014 Just what I said only 11ty million times better making far more sense 1 agentkiwi reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agentkiwi 110 Posted July 1, 2014 So when you get noisy lifters, is that usually sticky shit stopping them from working properly? On another matter, if under hard acceleration, up a hill for example, you hear like a quiet clattering sound, but disappears once the load is off or revs are up, what could that be potentially? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted July 1, 2014 Weeeeeeeeeeeel it could be oil braking down,lifter collapsing (where it can't replace the oil it's pushing out quick enough),could be general wear on the engine from age and when under load and warm it has a tad more clearance in the valve gear or the big killer could be the dreaded rattle of pre-igniton or detonation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wagoon 2,429 Posted July 1, 2014 Under load only in my limited knowledge(see above for example) I would be thinking pinging. Does it do it always on any heavy load application ie even on the flat? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agentkiwi 110 Posted July 1, 2014 I don't think it's anything terminal. The engine has 130k on it. I bought it at 106k. Ive changed the oil & filter every 5k since, always use Valvoline engine armour 15w40. I used to have a noisy lifter so I put 500mls of product in the oil & the lifter hasn't made a noise since. I changed the oil about 2k later & it was blacker than it normally is which I expected. Then I added some moreys oil stabiliser to the next change. I've also been using moreys upper cylinder lube/cleaner in the fuel for a while. just lately I've noticed the oil pressure guage drops from just over half way to about a third under acceleration until it's warm then it goes back to the correct position after that. The other noise is a bit like pinging, maybe it is, maybe the timing chain is a bit worn. I'm not worried about it as it only does it under foot to the floor conditions & I don't do that often. More just curious what it could be. is it worth having a mechanic give it a tune & or recurve the distributor? Thanks for the info so far guys Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agentkiwi 110 Posted July 1, 2014 Another thought I've had is; after I bought the car I noticed the sump is dented. Its a long flat dent from about half way along the pan all the way to the back. It's pushed the pan up about 15-20mm in the deepest part near the rear of the sump down to 5mm in the middle. Basically like if you drove up a big concrete kerb and bottomed out on it. This could be affecting the oil pump & or pickup? I have a sump gasket set so I guess I'll have to take the pan off, press it straight & check/clean the pickup. I'm not that keen to take the engine out to do it so I'll try the raising the engine 50mm as the manual explains & get it out that way. Think I'll have to find a pit or hoist before I attempt that though Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerg 10,871 Posted July 1, 2014 I had the sump off mine a couple of weeks back to do an oil pump. Quite easy if you just take out the through bolts on the mounts and loosen the mount bolts on the block (they interfere with the sump rails by a bee's dick). Hoist the engine up till something goes crunch then back it off a bit then off she comes. Gotta ask though, if your oil pressure stays good all the times, ie accelerate, slow, left, right, then is it all worth the hassle? I reckon if it's not an issue then it's not an issue. Of course if you lay awake thinking about it, then ok, might be better off doing it. Total turn-around should be about 4 hours. 1 agentkiwi reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agentkiwi 110 Posted July 2, 2014 Funny you should say that actually. I seem to be forever chasing issues that aren't really issues but I can't help it. It's the only way I ever learn how something works or is fixed. Most of the time about half way through I seriously wish I hadn't started it but it's too late by then I have to finish it. My philosophy is: if it's better than it was before then I'm happy. 1 gerg reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted July 2, 2014 I would not run 15-40 in a crossy unless it was in really cold conditions. 25-50W and you will maintain better oil pressure when hot. These are old engines with bigger clearances than modern shit - that is why modern shit can run lighter oil weights. That dent in the sump will be causing the issue - I'll bet my left one on it. Factory sump floor to pick up clearance is 3mm. Think about that for a moment with your 15mm- 20mm dent. That's is the scary realm. As Sly and most others will tell you I have spent an unhealthy amount of time studying the oiling system on x-flows and I play with x-flow oil pumps for fun - yes I need to get a life. I also build race sumps for fun and although at times I get things wrong - like x flow head bolts not being torque to yield - I like to think I know the oiling systems pretty good. If it were me I would be fixing that sump in a heart beat or your low K engine will end up having a ventilation hole in it - usually around number 5 or 6, and that is not a good look. 1 agentkiwi reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agentkiwi 110 Posted July 2, 2014 Haha...good read ando. I think I'll elevate the sump repair up the priority list....just because. I finished the roller top conversion on the steering box today. New pitman, idler & tie rods. Didn't have time for the ball joints but they really are an issue that's not an issue. So now I need something to do! Cheers to all! P.S have you ever been to NZ? High temp of 8 today, -2 overnight. That's the main reason I use 15w40. 1 Outback Jack reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agentkiwi 110 Posted August 23, 2014 This might be a long winded update but pay close attention if you ever intend to tackle something like this yourself as some of my frustration will be your godsend. I prepared fully to drop out my damaged sump and replace. I bought a new sump on trademe (ebay) from an 86 FE LTD 4.1 EFI. It turned up in good condition but I cleaned it out spotless and repainted it all set. I bought some red RTF gasket sealant and was ready to go. I started 8am Saturday, following the manual everything went great for a while, drained the radiator, took off the shroud, removed the swaybar and rebushed, removed the through bolts, jacked up the engine, inserted the 50mm spacers, drained the oil, took out the sump bolts, dropped the sump then I hit problems. There is no way in fiery hell that sump is coming out, not forwards not backwards not sideways. The LTD's must have a diferent crossmember or something but it is IMPOSSIBLE to remove ther sump by only lifting the engine 50mm. After a LOT of swearing and f***ing around removing the bonnet, aircleaner, radiator and craneing the engine up another 100mm did it even look possible. Don't ask me how I got it that high without breaking something but I did and by twisting the sump sideways did I manage to get it out. OK time for a smoke. Next I managed to get the new sump in for a test fit.....f**k me!! The bolt holes don't line up! They do at 1 end but out by a whole hole at the other. The new sump won't work. I suppose I should have checked it against the gasket so lesson learned. I had to panelbeat the old sump, clean it out, quick coat of black zinc spraypaint. Gasket it up, fit it. I also had to repair the pick up as the dent in the sump pan had pushed the pickup upwards and the inlet was bent. I got that sorted and opened back up with the right tools and some patience By this stage it's dark. Yep I've been here nearly 10 hours, so I downed tools & went home. Next day got there at 9am, first look sees the half moons hanging half out the pan....F**K!! Take it off start again, got it right this time. Lowered the engine, put the car all back together which takes the best part of 4 hours. Strip one side of the bonnet hinge bolts in the process as well as splitting one of the tranny cooler lines near the radiator fitting. F***ing great! Retap the hinge holes, hose join a new rubber piece from the cooler to the hard lines. Get it all together, Start it up.....nothing. Loose Earth from the starter took another hour to work out. So by 4pm Sunday I've got it running, NO LEAKS! F***ing amazing! Drive home, have an hour long shower which still doesn't remove all of the grease and grime in my hair and everywhere else, collapse in a heap on the couch but i'm in bed by 7 and have to get up for work next day by 6. What a relaxing weekend that was! NOT The reason I needed to do this was because the pump made a rattling noise on start up due to the pickup being restricted. The oil pressure was pretty much erratic as well for the same reason. On startup now there is no noise and the oil pressure goes straight to good and stays there so mission accomplished, no air hole near #5 or 6 for this engine for a while! This weekend I've just spent washing the engine bay and underneath. Still no leaks so that's good. In conclusion, if you have to replace your sump in the future, I highly recommend you remove the engine...no shit! To just replace the gasket or the pick up or oil pump then yeah raising the engine 50mm will work but on the 84LTD you WILL NOT get the sump out. The end. 4 gerg, Thom, slydog and 1 other reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Banno 479 Posted August 23, 2014 Some people may not agree. But it is easy and less pain to take the engine out. With the amount of practice I've had over the years with different cars how quick you can pull an engine out and back in now. Hate crawling under cars! Fuck that if I can avoid it 2 slydog and Thom reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thom 6,650 Posted August 23, 2014 Far far easier to pull the engine than go through that shit, seen them end badly that way 1 agentkiwi reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Polson 10,214 Posted August 23, 2014 Know those feels. Tried to replace my sump in my XF a few weeks ago by just lifting motor... Nope not happening. 1 agentkiwi reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted August 23, 2014 Well at least it's fixed. good write up and some valuable info for those contemplating taking the 'easy way' out. oh and with those temps I think you well and truly fit into my advice of "unless it was in really cold condition" - jesus man that is stupid cold. No I have never been to NZ but they tell me it is a beautiful country - wife wants to do but I think ill go in summer - you do have a summer right? 1 agentkiwi reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agentkiwi 110 Posted August 23, 2014 Haha yep, we have a Summmer. Average high temp of ~25 but if you're going to come over then, go to the Sth Island. Down south around Marlborough sounds and Southern Alps is some of the most beautiful scenery you'll ever see. Nth Island, places like Taupo where I live are also pretty stunning. Skip the beaches as Australia has that covered much better. It's gorgeous here today. -2 again last night & we'll see a lofty high of probably 12 today. I'll host you if you do get here. Thanks for your advice on the repair. While it was a bitch to do, I'm glad I did. Much happier oil pump now. Next weekend I'm going to drop the tranny pan & replace the fluid & filters. I'm pretty sure it's got non type F fluid in there now. Stay tuned, could be another learning curve coming up! 2 slydog and ando76 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted August 23, 2014 oh and with those temps I think you well and truly fit into my advice of "unless it was in really cold condition" - jesus man that is stupid cold. No I have never been to NZ but they tell me it is a beautiful country - wife wants to do but I think ill go in summer - you do have a summer right? LOL this bloke was wearing jeans in January in Wagga and it was like 42 degree's but DRY.-2 he wouldn't be able to move LOL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
