slydog 7,873 Posted March 16, 2014 Like said by McFly and the others who use/used it...It's not needed IMO.Mine drove fine,started like it had no plugs in it and reved like a mo-fo with no rattles,after I replaced the Holley pump with the Aeromotive unit. This didn't need a timing map... If you want adjustable timing go for it as thats your call. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigpaulo 239 Posted March 16, 2014 i dont really know what i want hahaha. just a motor that revs and starts and idles nicely! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigpaulo 239 Posted March 16, 2014 holy shit slydog that sounds mean!! what a beast of a crossflow! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PRO250 1,506 Posted March 16, 2014 now the plans are out the window building a roller 400hose crossy LOL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted March 16, 2014 I want a 400hp crossy too 1 ando76 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ando76 4,354 Posted March 16, 2014 Yes a street fire will do the job - yes locked timing will do the job, but if you are going to spend the coin - spend it once and buy the programmable unit. Engines need different timing at different rpm increments. Locked timing is for drag cars and is really, really old school technology - yes it will work - no doubt about that but if you want your engine to perform at its best through the whole rpm range - which is extremely important in a street application then go with the programmable unit. That way if you decide to upgrade - or down grade in the future you will not have to buy another ignition or coil. It will also stop your engine from rattling to death should you get a bad batch of fuel. Yes they are seriously that good. 1 gerg reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerg 10,871 Posted March 16, 2014 here's a little more on them: http://www.ozfalcon.com.au/index.php?/topic/1708-msd-6al-2-programmable-anyone-running-them/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigpaulo 239 Posted March 17, 2014 This might be a silly question...but what would happen if I ran the est dizzy and ignition on a worked motor? All this ignition stuff seems to be getting a bit out of control... I have the two most expensive hobbies, cars and music haha 1 eattsie9 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted March 17, 2014 EST dizzy uses a control module with a timing map in it based on coolant and map sensor on the firewall.As soon as the car get warm it retards timing to like under 10 degree's which kill's any EST timing advantage. So yes it's a silly question if your thinking EST timing computer to save money...Street Fire CDI and even a stock HEC coil will do and TFI or EST dizzy and your set.Been done waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to many times to say it doesn't work for a awesome cheap upgrade. P.S my coil cost almost $300,your WHOLE ignition can be had for less if going the Street fire route. 1 Clevo120Y reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigpaulo 239 Posted March 17, 2014 More to save my brain from melting trying to set up a new ignition... Im still trying to wrap my head around how a fixed dizzy is a benefit over an electronically controlled dizzy like the est system. Bear with me, I'll get there eventually! Cheers to everyone for your responses, im learning a lot! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted March 17, 2014 No one said benefit...I said the adjustable timing map is not needed for most.Turbo or NOS or maybe gas/LPG cars but a basic petrol powered street car pfffftt.It's simpler (your starting out) it works and is proven (your starting out) it MUCH cheaper (your starting out) it's easy to fit (your starting out) you can buy it anywhere.Get the picture? Seeing as xflows really love timing you just wind in your 30 degree's or more and drive it like normal and when the mood hits kick back a few gears and rev it and watch it go. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigpaulo 239 Posted March 17, 2014 Haha yeah i get the picture. Im all for beginner systems! Alright, I'll give this streetfire system a go...if I completely screw it up I can always reinstall the EST I suppose! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wagoon 2,429 Posted March 17, 2014 The way I got my head around it is standard dizzys are variable timing units controlled by either vacuum or electric. A locked dizzy is non variable timing. The 6al2 programmable uses a locked dizzy but varies the timing by taking out timing from the locked figure. The advantage with this is by using a laptop you can control the timing at 100rpm intervals. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigpaulo 239 Posted March 17, 2014 oh yeah i understand how that works. i understand how with the programmable msd you can put in a curve, so the spark timing would function similar to that of a stock dizzy with vacuum or electric advance. so obviously the msd programmable would make the car behave similar to stock timing over the whole rev range. What Im stuck on is how a fixed dizzy setup, like the streetfire system, would make the car behave over the entire rev range. It makes sense that a fixed dizzy system would run excellent at the higher rpms, but does that mean a fixed dizzy system will give you issues with idling, starting, and in the low rev range? I realise the programmable msd is the absolute ducks nuts for any kind of application, but if i can get away without using it and still maintain drivability I would be a lot happier. And a lot richer... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigpaulo 239 Posted March 17, 2014 Sorry if these questions arent making any sense...I know what Im trying to ask, just not so good on wording it. Maybe I should draw some pictures haha Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerg 10,871 Posted March 17, 2014 Locked dizzies are most suited to alcohol or race-oriented engines like Slydog's with big cams that bleed off lots of low-rpm compression. It just so happens that this allows low-rpm timing to be advanced to the point that it matches (roughly) the high-rpm requirement, so the timing is simply locked at this figure for the whole rpm range and the engine is reasonably happy with that. On anything resembling a daily driver, many more variations must be factored in, like part-throttle response and fuel economy (vac advance), ease of cranking (base timing), and higher-rpm performance (mechanical). All of these parameters are catered for in a factory setup but as you chase more power using cams and compression, etc you find that the factory tune is inadequate. We're not saying all this so you'll reach into your pocket and fork out for a whiz-bang setup that you don't really need. We all have personally seen definite advantages using the various systems we keep harping on about. I like my MSD not because I want to justify to myself that spending 450-odd bucks was worth it, but because I know I can tune that fucker exactly how my engine wants it. It starts and idles like it has no right to, barely needs any choke and I can actually jet the carby down for a bit leaner cruise. The flow-on effect of having a kick-arse ignition is not realised until you actually use one. 2 Clevo120Y and bigpaulo reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Clevo120Y 815 Posted March 17, 2014 I am also a big fan of the MSD programmable setup, The locked dizzy setup like Sly suggests does work but for a few hundred more you can get the whole deal and some, it will future proof your combination and be the best money you will ever spend. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slydog 7,873 Posted March 17, 2014 What Im stuck on is how a fixed dizzy setup, like the streetfire system, would make the car behave over the entire rev range. It makes sense that a fixed dizzy system would run excellent at the higher rpms, but does that mean a fixed dizzy system will give you issues with idling, starting, and in the low rev range? You didnt watch the vids i posted ? No start retard,no low timing setting it just works.That ignition is TFI dizzy and a 6AL2 Non programmable HVC coil...starts drives fine.That said the ultimate is a fully mappable system that is tuned on a dyno (thats not included in the price LOL) not in the driveway but as stated before,mine had one and now it doesn't and as other's have stated who have installed the TFI set up it works fine in everyday life.Thats why the world has no hot rodders any more people expect to have a car that runs like stock yet goe's like and V8 supercar?It's all about concession's... On what yours is going to look like I wouldn't bother as there will be no real gain TBH unless you want to run on 91 octane fuel and big compression so you can work the timing map.But what do I know only having done all of them ignitions before and finding the current to work best?But really it's all piss and wind until a engine is built anyway.So I'd worry about all that first or this thread will be 8 pages long then you will reply with ...sorry guys it looked like too much work and too dear so I bought a XR6 turbo.Seen it too many times before...LOL Good luck with what ever you sort out bud... 5 eattsie9, bigpaulo, ZL. and 2 others reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigpaulo 239 Posted March 18, 2014 Hahaha cheers sly, youve put my mind at ease now. Nah there's no way id go xr6t, ive already come this far, might as well stick with it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wagoon 2,429 Posted March 18, 2014 Do stick with it cause you will end up with an awesome car with character not some bland grocery getter with a turbo. 3 slydog, 93xf and bigpaulo reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigpaulo 239 Posted March 20, 2014 Cheers everyone for all your help and advice on this. Now that ive got some idea on what i'm doing, its time to start collecting parts. No doubt as I get further along I will have more questions...I'd rather ask and get it right the first time than have to rebuild again and again! 4 slydog, Clevo120Y, eattsie9 and 1 other reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XFChris 126 Posted March 25, 2014 Don't mean to hijack, but how about the MSD Streetfire + TFI combo on a dual fuel Crossflow? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigpaulo 239 Posted March 26, 2014 Aha! I think I just found the answer to all of my ignition questions: What’s the differences between a Capacitive Discharge (CD) ignition like an MSD and my stock ignition system? The biggest difference is that the majority of stock ignitions are inductive ignitions. Inductive ignition systems are used due to their simplicity and inexpensive production. For stock applications these ignitions are adequate, but when it comes to gaining performance, factory inductive ignitions fall short. The primary weak link of a stock ignition is because the coil serves double duty. The coil must act as a step-up transformer to create a higher voltage spark, plus it needs to store this power until the ignition is triggered. As engine rpm increases there isn’t enough time to completely step-up the voltage before the ignition is triggered resulting in a weaker spark. This low voltage spark may not be enough to light the fuel mixture in the cylinder which will result in a misfire and loss of power. A CD ignition, is capable of producing full power sparks throughout the entire rpm range. It draws its energy directly from the battery where a custom wound transformer steps it up to over 460 volts. This voltage is then stored in a capacitor until the ignition is triggered. At this point, all of the voltage is dumped into the coil where it is transformed into even more voltage, anywhere from 30,000 - 45,000 volts depending on the coil, which is sent to the distributor and finally to the plugs. The ability to produce high power sparks throughout the entire rpm range of your engine is why you need a CD ignition. The payoff is complete combustion of the fuel mixture which results in more power, increased throttle response, a smooth idle, quick starts, improved economy and reduced plug fouling. All engines will benefit from a CD ignition but when you’re planning on engine modifications, the need for an MSD Ignition increases. In particular, if you’re planning these types of engine modifications, you should be installing a CD ignition: Improving air flow into the engine or richening the fuel mixture (rejetting or larger injectors) Adding a super/turbocharger or a nitrous oxide system Increasing the compression ratio and consistent high rpm operation 5. Why does an MSD produce multiple sparks and what are the benefits?Conventional CD ignitions supply one spark of intense energy but for a short duration (time). An MSD uses multiple sparking technology to take advantage of the quick rise time and power of a CD Ignition by producing a series of sparks. More sparks equal more heat in the combustion chamber resulting in complete combustion of the fuel mixture which produces more power. At lower rpm, there are many benefits to multiple sparks including a smooth idle, improved throttle response plus the spark series prevents fouling plugs or fuel loading up in the cylinder when air/fuel distribution is poor. The multiple spark series of an MSD Ignition Control lasts for 20° of crankshaft rotation. At lower rpm, 1,000 rpm for example, there is plenty of time to fire the plug a number of times to ensure ignition of the fuel mixture. As rpm increases, the piston travels up on the compression stroke faster resulting in a shorter amount of time available to fire the plug so the number of sparks that occur decreases. By about 3,000-3,300 rpm, there is only enough time to fire the plug once. From about this rpm range on, an MSD ignition control delivers one intense, full power spark. So multiple spark firing is the key to low rpm performance! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerg 10,871 Posted March 26, 2014 It has an effect of taming modified engines that have lean or rich mixtures, and also of allowing better combustion when cold. Instead of only getting one go at it, it can fire up to 6 times. Your plugs are much less likely to foul and stay very clean on the electrode surfaces. Just be mindful of a couple of things: it can give you a really decent belt, particularly if your plug leads are a bit ordinary. It's also a bit harder on plugs, seeing as it's firing much more often, and you'll wear them out sooner. 1 Clevo120Y reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
