Running dual fuel on AU 4.0L fitted into a XC

[78xcgxl 241]

As some of you may know i am about to commence work on doing a 4.0l conversion into my XC. I have been doing a lot of research on the matter and what not but I'm not sure on what to do on the lpg side of things. My XC is currently running dual fuel and i wish to retain this feature when i install the AU motor.

Some of the queries below

What is involved in keeping the gas and what are my options ?

As far as gas setup on AUs go i mainly see the convertor type, but do some run vapor injection as well or is that only on BA onwards?

What is this i hear about tickford LPG?

 

[revhead 1,392]

best thing is ditch one ,id get ridd of the petrol imo and run straight gas ,get it tuned for gas ,dont run both

 

get the petrol injectors out and get gas injectors fitted ,itl sc=ream

[RAWDEAL 222]

+1 for the straight gas. will help simplify things, will also help with getting it engineered (if you wanted to)

 

just weld up the injector holes if u wanna go a mixer / converter type setup

 

u wont need an ecu that way so a lot less wires.. 

[78xcgxl 241]

Straight gas is out of the question (i just can't stand the restrictions that comes with it), i'd run it on straight petrol if i have to. With a J3 chip i can run two separate tunes (one for gas and one for petrol and switch tunes when fuel is changed) and have the best of both worlds. Dual fuel runs great on OHC 6s not like crossflow and clevos so there should be no reason for me not to take advantage of that considering the car already is running dual fuel with the Crossflow so the lines and tank is there just a matter of hooking up the AU engine bay gas gear and wire it all up.

[revhead 1,392]

no imo  you are wasting your time pick one ,not meaning to be rude but it is proven tune for one is better then trying to tune for both,my efi windsor will be built for straight gas ,as petrol is rubbish these days, with LPG  you get 100% burn ,you can squeeze, more gas into a standard port then you can with petrol, and  you wont be whinging in 6 months how the gas has fucked your injectors ,

 

i always get people bringing their dual fuel cars into my workshop,crying why ITwill not run good on fuel ,etc bc the injectors are rooted ,idle speed motors rooted ,etc but the guys who drive in ,with straight gas falcons, bombadores only come in once a year for a general service , plugs air filter oil, never any mystery probs,

 

straight petrol cars ,generally no probs !

 

gas cars spark go !

 

efi petrol and gas headache !

[Gav 616]

I don't think you're wasting your time...it's nice to have fuel system redundancy. There are still cost savings running a car on LPG...especially if it's your daily.

 

I run my EB on gas most of the time and it's good to know that if ever there's a problem with that system I can flick over to petrol and complete my journey. Last Christmas a fuel pump shat itself mid-intersection (with my toddler kids in the car) in one of my cars (without LPG). It  required a tray-truck-trip home. Expensive. Inconvenient to say the least.  

 

Old Impco vapour systems are great...simple, effective. Simplicity is their virtue. An L-series convertor and a 225 mixer will do the job on a 4 litre engine. I'm working on a way to get a 225 mixer onto an engine with a BBM...gotta be better than the ring mixers. The four litres go okay on gas - having petrol on board is like a plumbed in gerry can...very handy!

 

The J3 chip  idea has merit I believe. Want gas? Go for it

[PRO250 1,506]

Id say pick one to

my ghia use to be on duel fuel and yes is was good i could drive it 1200km to one fill, but why have both unless you want to do a qld to sydney in one stop?


my car only runs on LPG now still does good km to a tank for what it is and i dont have to put up with it running crap on one and in my case it was fuel


pick one and build it aroud that. im not sure what you mean by restrictions unless your talking about where you can fill it i live in the middle of nowhere and have never run out of gas bar one time and it would have happend on fuel to cause i never looked  

also if you pick LPG you can get rid of the fuel side and going by the fact your even looking at a j3 chip and running a fuel system you would save over $500 going the LPG parth and just run a stand alone dissy for timing. lots less wiring to i removed a box full of wiring out of mine and a complete fuel system, the cars lighter to i think

the clevo and crossy and a 4litre running better then a one i think is rubbish its just a smoother engine its not in tune you just cant feel it as much ive run all those engines on both and none are better then the other when running on both fuels you just have to tune for the one you run the most
 

end of the day its up to you how you go and good luck with it

one little rant ill stick in here why a 4litre over the factory crossy? i can understand why you would want a clevo conversion cause its a bigger engine, but a 4litre you will gain almost nothing i know a bloke thats done this with his XF cause his engine died but his will still not get near the old slapper 250 XF i had, and not even better on fuel. if it was me spend $1500 on doing up your engine and leave it on gas will go as well as a 4litre and be cheap to run

[Ants 6,370]

The guy has not asked for an opinion on his plans, lets stick to helping him rather than shitting on him.Simple answer to the question is yes au's ran a simple converter system from factory, falcons never got gas injection until fg mark2. I f I were doing it id use something like an impco system because the vialle gas that ford used on au are not tunable, and very expensive to replace a converter on.

[Gav 616]

Ah...er..okay......your options for keeping the gas to return to the original premise are somewhat dependant on manifold type : are you going to use log or BBM type? 

 

Systems found on the BBM manifolded cars (if that's what you're going to use) are commonly ring type simple mixers employing complex convertors or Impco systems using smaller "200" mixers. (simple convertor, complex mixer) I reckon this is a "packaging expediient" - in that for the space available, these are the easiest fitment options. You can get a neat cast aluminium manifold that adapts the Impco mixer to factory intake piping for the factory look. Of the two, I'd choose the Impco system for it's simplicity and its value for money. Spares are widely and easily available. 

 

If you wish to use a log manifold on your conversion, again ring mixers are used as well as Impco systems with either "200" or "225" mixers. For my money I'd use the Impco 225 mixer with a Model L convertor. This is a natural fit for log manifolded engines. The 225 has the same internals as the 200 but doesn't turn airflow through ninety-degrees and thus flows a bit better than the "200" These mixers have "clean air" (CA) and "feed back" (FB) versions. CA fitment is less fuss than FB.....but if you're looking to get a roadworthy for the car, the tester may insist of FB fitment in keeping with pollution requiremnts and the AU engine. FB fitments employ microprocessors linked to the HEGO sensor (and associated pneumatic control) in order to lean out inherently the rich mixtures on FB mixers.

 

I reckon the 225 mixer is a better choice for the 4 litre engine than the 200. Although I've never seen a commercial fitment, with a bit of thought I reckon you could put an Impco 225/Model L  on a BBM manifolded engine. I'm looking to do this on my 4 Litre XF conversion. That may be instructive for you as the engine bay shape is quite similar in most respects. I'll post photos when I get it done.

 

Finally - gas injection - an expensive option and probably unnecessary for this application.

[RAWDEAL 222]

As some of you may know i am about to commence work on doing a 4.0l conversion into my XC. I have been doing a lot of research on the matter and what not but I'm not sure on what to do on the lpg side of things. My XC is currently running dual fuel and i wish to retain this feature when i install the AU motor.

 

Some of the queries below

 

What is involved in keeping the gas and what are my options ?

 

As far as gas setup on AUs go i mainly see the convertor type, but do some run vapor injection as well or is that only on BA onwards?

 

What is this i hear about tickford LPG?

 

I would get it running on straight petrol, then add the lpg. will be fair easier and better to troubleshoot. 

 

as far as converter / mixer setups . u can keep the existing gas setup on your car , and just add a mixer and converter pretty much

 

getting the petrol running will require an EFI fuel pump and all that . so thats why i suggest you do that first. 

 

LPG vapor injection isnt, IMO, very user friendly/simple, if ure lpg injection system in underrated , horsepower wise, it will need a system to switch it on the fly to petrol. ive driven an au duel fuel like this. not sure about other oem setups

 

most (if not all?) of the vapor injection kits run a piggy back off ure existing ecu as well.

 

do you have a car ure pulling all of this out of ? would make it 100x easier

 

if you go mixer type u could use an impco 425 with a efi/hose/flange?adaptor on the end so u can actually plumb it onto the throttle body, that way u get to keep the intake manifold that the car comes with

 

Go here

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ssn=propane-kits&_pgn=2&_skc=200&rt=nc

 

these guys sell heaps of adaptors and stuff for lpg. 

 

i would use the 425 mixer as the standard au 6cyls have a bit of power , you dont really wanna set it all up and then realize uve put a huge restrictive gas mixer in the intake 

[Gav 616]

I've heard good things about the Impco 425. Impco literature says its a "vertical mount" application which suits sitting atop a V8...but I've known folk to horizontal mount them. Theyre 20mm narrower than a 225 and flow a lot better. Hmmmm....that's given me food for thought. you may be onto something mate! I suppose you can mount a 425 remote from the throttle body...as you might a 225....you'd have to on a 4 litre engine - typical installations on a V8 are directly to a Holley baseplate/throttle body. The reason I suggested a 225 is they're perfectly adequate and dime-a-dozen at self-serve wreckers. You're gonna pay a good dollar for an Impco 425 - even second hand - around $300 cos' you'll be bidding against the V8 owners...

 

Oh..and "Blue LPG" ( http://www.bluelpg.com.au/) in Lilydale have a stand alone shop and sells stuff on Ebay. I got a tank restamped there for $160 and can recomend the service.....if you're looking for a local supplier of bit 'n' pieces. I know a place that'll make up a flexible service line for you too without the anal "Where's your LPG ticket?" stuff as well....

[Gav 616]

Here's one on a cross flow :

 

http://www.fordaustraliaforums.com/forum/showthread.php?29227-%28FS%29%28ACT%29Impco-425-base-Cain-LG-B2-suit-250-crossflow

 

 

Here's some horizontally mounted ones so it must be okay to do that :

 

http://www.musclecarcalendar.com/MyGarage/2005/1969Holden/69H1.jpg

[RAWDEAL 222]

I've heard good things about the Impco 425. Impco literature says its a "vertical mount" application which suits sitting atop a V8...but I've known folk to horizontal mount them. Theyre 20mm narrower than a 225 and flow a lot better. Hmmmm....that's given me food for thought. you may be onto something mate! I suppose you can mount a 425 remote from the throttle body...as you might a 225....you'd have to on a 4 litre engine - typical installations on a V8 are directly to a Holley baseplate/throttle body. The reason I suggested a 225 is they're perfectly adequate and dime-a-dozen at self-serve wreckers. You're gonna pay a good dollar for an Impco 425 - even second hand - around $300 cos' you'll be bidding against the V8 owners...

 

Oh..and "Blue LPG" ( http://www.bluelpg.com.au/) in Lilydale have a stand alone shop and sells stuff on Ebay. I got a tank restamped there for $160 and can recomend the service.....if you're looking for a local supplier of bit 'n' pieces. I know a place that'll make up a flexible service line for you too without the anal "Where's your LPG ticket?" stuff as well....

ive seen a 425 horizontally mounted with a fabricated square to round, that was on a vq 5.0l. but the principal is the same, he got to keep the maf sensor and all that other stuff, including the airbox. which is good for dual fuel

 

plus you save ~150$ on a baseplate

 

usually u can find a 425 on ebay for less that 150$ , or at least i have. type l's can be had for around 50$

[78xcgxl 241]

no imo  you are wasting your time pick one ,not meaning to be rude but it is proven tune for one is better then trying to tune for both,my efi windsor will be built for straight gas ,as petrol is rubbish these days, with LPG  you get 100% burn ,you can squeeze, more gas into a standard port then you can with petrol, and  you wont be whinging in 6 months how the gas has fucked your injectors ,

 

i always get people bringing their dual fuel cars into my workshop,crying why ITwill not run good on fuel ,etc bc the injectors are rooted ,idle speed motors rooted ,etc but the guys who drive in ,with straight gas falcons, bombadores only come in once a year for a general service , plugs air filter oil, never any mystery probs,

 

straight petrol cars ,generally no probs !

 

gas cars spark go !

 

efi petrol and gas headache !

 

 I understand what you are saying but it doesn’t worry me if the injectors fuck up and whatever it may stuff up because parts are cheap as chips for AUs eg: i can just get another engine for $250 and do all the work myself. The main reason duel fuel cars have problems is that most people constantly run them on gas only, thus the petrol becoming stale and then it’s when the all problems occur. My dad’s dual fuel EB did 270,000 before he sold it with no problems what’s so ever and his BA did 80,000 with no problems either.

 

 

 

 

Id say pick one to

 

my ghia use to be on duel fuel and yes is was good i could drive it 1200km to one fill, but why have both unless you want to do a qld to sydney in one stop?

 

 

my car only runs on LPG now still does good km to a tank for what it is and i dont have to put up with it running crap on one and in my case it was fuel

 

 

pick one and build it aroud that. im not sure what you mean by restrictions unless your talking about where you can fill it i live in the middle of nowhere and have never run out of gas bar one time and it would have happend on fuel to cause i never looked  

 

also if you pick LPG you can get rid of the fuel side and going by the fact your even looking at a j3 chip and running a fuel system you would save over $500 going the LPG parth and just run a stand alone dissy for timing. lots less wiring to i removed a box full of wiring out of mine and a complete fuel system, the cars lighter to i think

 

the clevo and crossy and a 4litre running better then a one i think is rubbish its just a smoother engine its not in tune you just cant feel it as much ive run all those engines on both and none are better then the other when running on both fuels you just have to tune for the one you run the most

 

end of the day its up to you how you go and good luck with it

 

one little rant ill stick in here why a 4litre over the factory crossy? i can understand why you would want a clevo conversion cause its a bigger engine, but a 4litre you will gain almost nothing i know a bloke thats done this with his XF cause his engine died but his will still not get near the old slapper 250 XF i had, and not even better on fuel. if it was me spend $1500 on doing up your engine and leave it on gas will go as well as a 4litre and be cheap to run

 

 

Sorry but i completely disagree are you serious in saying that there is no gain in converting to a 4litre? Is a leap in 20+ years of engineering + technology, more power+ torque, fuel injection and fantastic fuel economy not a gain?

 

 

The crossflow may have been great in their day but they are a piece of shit compared to a 4.0L OHC & DOHC 6s. A stock 4.0l will rape the shit out of any stock crossflow and most worked ones as well and get 11L per 100km while at it. You can't compare the 2, it's like chalk and cheese.

The 4.0L especially BF onwards DOHC is an Australian engineering master piece and IMO the best 6 cylinder ever made.

 

The reason i'm doing a 4.0l conversion is beacuse i can't drive a clevo on my Ps even if could i probs wouldn't drive one with fuel costs, unfortunaly i don't have money coming out of my ass haha. The crossflow currently in the car is a gutless peice of shit even though it has a ported head, extractors and an exhaust system. It doesn't like to rev, sick of carbies and warm up time with cast iron head and if it wasn't for the gas it would probabaly use fuel like a clevo. keep in mind the car is a daily driver as well.

 

 

 

 

Ah...er..okay......your options for keeping the gas to return to the original premise are somewhat dependant on manifold type : are you going to use log or BBM type? 

 

Systems found on the BBM manifolded cars (if that's what you're going to use) are commonly ring type simple mixers employing complex convertors or Impco systems using smaller "200" mixers. (simple convertor, complex mixer) I reckon this is a "packaging expediient" - in that for the space available, these are the easiest fitment options. You can get a neat cast aluminium manifold that adapts the Impco mixer to factory intake piping for the factory look. Of the two, I'd choose the Impco system for it's simplicity and its value for money. Spares are widely and easily available. 

 

If you wish to use a log manifold on your conversion, again ring mixers are used as well as Impco systems with either "200" or "225" mixers. For my money I'd use the Impco 225 mixer with a Model L convertor. This is a natural fit for log manifolded engines. The 225 has the same internals as the 200 but doesn't turn airflow through ninety-degrees and thus flows a bit better than the "200" These mixers have "clean air" (CA) and "feed back" (FB) versions. CA fitment is less fuss than FB.....but if you're looking to get a roadworthy for the car, the tester may insist of FB fitment in keeping with pollution requiremnts and the AU engine. FB fitments employ microprocessors linked to the HEGO sensor (and associated pneumatic control) in order to lean out inherently the rich mixtures on FB mixers.

 

I reckon the 225 mixer is a better choice for the 4 litre engine than the 200. Although I've never seen a commercial fitment, with a bit of thought I reckon you could put an Impco 225/Model L  on a BBM manifolded engine. I'm looking to do this on my 4 Litre XF conversion. That may be instructive for you as the engine bay shape is quite similar in most respects. I'll post photos when I get it done.

 

Finally - gas injection - an expensive option and probably unnecessary for this application.

 

Thanks for your input very helpful i'll just stick to the simple convertor type and looks like vapour injection is not worth the trouble if i want more power i'll just push the button and swtich over to petrol.

 

 

I would get it running on straight petrol, then add the lpg. will be fair easier and better to troubleshoot. 

 

as far as converter / mixer setups . u can keep the existing gas setup on your car , and just add a mixer and converter pretty much

 

getting the petrol running will require an EFI fuel pump and all that . so thats why i suggest you do that first. 

 

LPG vapor injection isnt, IMO, very user friendly/simple, if ure lpg injection system in underrated , horsepower wise, it will need a system to switch it on the fly to petrol. ive driven an au duel fuel like this. not sure about other oem setups

 

most (if not all?) of the vapor injection kits run a piggy back off ure existing ecu as well.

 

do you have a car ure pulling all of this out of ? would make it 100x easier

 

if you go mixer type u could use an impco 425 with a efi/hose/flange?adaptor on the end so u can actually plumb it onto the throttle body, that way u get to keep the intake manifold that the car comes with

 

Go here

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ssn=propane-kits&_pgn=2&_skc=200&rt=nc

 

these guys sell heaps of adaptors and stuff for lpg. 

 

i would use the 425 mixer as the standard au 6cyls have a bit of power , you dont really wanna set it all up and then realize uve put a huge restrictive gas mixer in the intake

 

Yeah that’s what I’m going to do it get it all running on straight petrol and drive it like that for a couple of months and what not testing the reliability of the conversion and fix all the tiny things that may come up. Then i will just get a complete gas setup off another au minus the tank and what is not needed and get my cousin a gas mechanic   to hook it up and get it running on dual fuel

 

 

 

 

 

[78xcgxl 241]

double post....

[RAWDEAL 222]

Saw the other thread you did. howd u end up going with the electrics did you only have to run the ecu+j3 and thats basically it ?

[78xcgxl 241]

Saw the other thread you did. howd u end up going with the electrics did you only have to run the ecu+j3 and thats basically it ?

 

Electrics were a pain in the ass and very time consuming. Spent days studying Au wiring diagrams trying to make sense of it. I used the stock AU ecu with a J3 chip to get rid of smart lock and convert the ecu from an auto to a manual one.

 

here is the build thread on it, for more details: http://www.xfalcon.com/forums/index.php?/topic/39584-1979-xc-falcon-500-raw-orange/

[78xcgxl 241]

Oh and an update on the gas saga, i'm going to go gas injection. Had a chat with my cousin about and he said he is able to do it. So that means no chance of backfiring, no power loss, much neater setup and better fuel economy. Can't wait. On his BF fairlane gas injection he is getting 350+ out of a 40 liter tank so i should be getting around 500km to a tank with the 70l tank. How good is that!, better economy than a Prius absolutely rapped!

[RAWDEAL 222]

Oh and an update on the gas saga, i'm going to go gas injection. Had a chat with my cousin about and he said he is able to do it. So that means no chance of backfiring, no power loss, much neater setup and better fuel economy. Can't wait. On his BF fairlane gas injection he is getting 350+ out of a 40 liter tank so i should be getting around 500km to a tank with the 70l tank. How good is that!, better economy than a Prius absolutely rapped!

with the correct diff gears , and if he is getting 350 out of 40l. wouldn't be surprised if u got 600+ out of a 70 liter! your car is lighter!