Crossflow ignition systems

[Clevo120Y 815]

Let's talk ignition systems for our crossflows.

I personally have had great success with the TFI dizzy and MSD 6al-2 programmable 6530 ignition system, I found that the features of this system were hard to beat for the price. Rev limit, burnout rev limit, launch rev limit, boost/nitrous retard and a full programmable ignition curve, you can make and save any number of curves to suit different fuel or race conditions, just upload from a laptop.

[slydog 7,873]

Jase Stoodley has gone COP/crank trigger on his 250.

[mcfly94 169]

Let's talk ignition systems for our crossflows.

I personally have had great success with the TFI dizzy and MSD 6al-2 programmable 6530 ignition system, I found that the features of this system were hard to beat for the price. Rev limit, burnout rev limit, launch rev limit, boost/nitrous retard and a full programmable ignition curve, you can make and save any number of curves to suit different fuel or race conditions, just upload from a laptop.

sometimes I wish I went the 6530 over just the street fire cdi

 

However I went CDI Street Fire CDI, MSD Blaster 3 and TFI running module (new rotor, new cap, and real good clean), the spark increase was insane!, car idles so much smoother, better fuel burn, and im actually getting an extra 100kms to a tank, on a rough tune.

 

Only issue is sometimes its hard to start, but I think that's down to my piss ant power cables, will soon be sorted by some 50mm2 cable! (0awg for those don't know)

[slydog 7,873]

sometimes I wish I went the 6530 over just the street fire cdi

 

It always costs more money to do things cheap...

[PRO250 1,506]

wiring diagram please im thinking of doing this sorry to hijack your thread rob

[slydog 7,873]

TFI dizzy with a module you wire 1-3-6 pins 2ND grey box from the top.

 

6= white from MSD

3= red from MSD

1= earth to ground

 

Orange from MSD to coil +

Black from MSD to coil -

 

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/TFI_5.0_comparison.gif&imgrefurl=http://forums.holley.com/showthread.php?3063-HP-to-Ford-TFI&h=798&w=500&sz=21&tbnid=hK8DyPpGtFnIeM:&tbnh=81&tbnw=51&zoom=1&usg=__tlYbRdgziF1KPDgqxEE9YpbpyAo=&docid=pBUQp9D8IEhFBM&sa=X&ei=5KfKUdmrA8ellAXDqYDYBg&sqi=2&ved=0CDUQ9QEwAw&dur=429

 

You can tweak mix the wires around and still it to work,you can convert it to no module,you can run it from a EST dizzy aswell which is no module.Ando has alot of luck with the EST dizzys...

 

Easy as.

[Tyler06 266]

TFI dizzy with a module you wire 1-3-6 pins 2ND grey box from the top.

 

6= white from MSD

3= red from MSD

1= earth to ground

 

Orange to coil +

Black to coil -

 

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/TFI_5.0_comparison.gif&imgrefurl=http://forums.holley.com/showthread.php?3063-HP-to-Ford-TFI&h=798&w=500&sz=21&tbnid=hK8DyPpGtFnIeM:&tbnh=81&tbnw=51&zoom=1&usg=__tlYbRdgziF1KPDgqxEE9YpbpyAo=&docid=pBUQp9D8IEhFBM&sa=X&ei=5KfKUdmrA8ellAXDqYDYBg&sqi=2&ved=0CDUQ9QEwAw&dur=429

 

You can tweak mix the wires around and still it to work,you can convert it to no module,you can run it from a EST dizzy aswell which is no module.Ando has alot of luck with the EST dizzys...

 

Easy as.

 

I dont have #1 grounded and it works still? But yes i use TFI and msd 6530 programmable ;-)

[Crazy2287 1,886]

The MSD 6530 sounds like a fkn winner! If your running carby and want performance on a dizzy it sounds like it's the best option.

 

I'm running an inductive system. TFI dizzy and high energy single coil pack controlled by Megasquirt ECU. Gets good spark energy and superior duration compared to an capacitive (ie MSD) system but it's a no go zone above 6000rpm if you use a dizzy as it will exceed the duty cycle of the coil.

If you want to rev over 6000rpm on a dizzy you pretty much have to go capacitive system or you'll be sacrificing your dwell times = less spark.

Make no mistake however, MSD is a very good system. It's proven. Throwing out an MSD to switch to inductive on a dizzy would be silly. However, if you are YET to upgrade your ignition system, and are not planning on exceeding 6000rpm. Inductive should be considered.

 

I mentioned COP and CPP before and there were a few questions.

COP and CPP stands for Coil on Plug and Coil Per Plug Respectively. The difference is COP the coil connects directly to the plug, there is no spark lead. With CPP the coils are mounted remotely and a lead run to the plug.

COP and CPP systems take out the dizzy all together, a single coil fires each plug. This gives less variation in timing, greater reliability and less resistive points for loss in spark energy.

The coils duty is 1/6th sequential or 1/3 wasted, that of a dizzy coil. So, you can run full dwell well above 10,000rpm for max spark on an inductive system.

 

COP/CPP waste spark means exactly that. It is a coil on plug or a coil per plug installation that uses only a crank trigger to run.

 

To expand,

To get the correct timing on a dizzy you only need a signal every TDC. So for a 6 cylinder you need 6 signals per camshaft rotation. The dizzy sends the spark to the correct plug.

WIthout the dizzy you need to tell the ECU which coil to fire. So it needs to know TDC on number 1 cylinder so it can correctly sequence the firing order. The first version of this is a trigger wheel on the crank.

 

There are 720 degrees crankshaft rotation, per ignition event, per cylinder.

Meaning the computer only knows TDC on cylinder 1. NOT if it is TDC compression or TDC exhaust stroke.

Problem? The solution is easy. The ECU simply fire's on both!

 

There will be a spark at TDC exhaust AND TDC compression. One spark ignites the fuel mix. and the other... does nothing. As it's sparking against no compression (the exhaust valve is open)and into exhaust fumes. Therefore it is 'Wasted'

 

Thats where it comes from. Waste spark means every second spark on each cylinder is 'wasted'

 

To get full sequential spark, you need to know if the engine is on the exhaust, or compression stroke. This information is picked from the Camshaft via a camshaft position sensor.

 

Questions? =P

[mcfly94 169]

good little write up there crazy! I learnt something!

[TF_250 398]

The MSD 6530 sounds like a fkn winner! If your running carby and want performance on a dizzy it sounds like it's the best option.

 

I'm running an inductive system. TFI dizzy and high energy single coil pack controlled by Megasquirt ECU. Gets good spark energy and superior duration compared to an capacitive (ie MSD) system but it's a no go zone above 6000rpm if you use a dizzy as it will exceed the duty cycle of the coil.

If you want to rev over 6000rpm on a dizzy you pretty much have to go capacitive system or you'll be sacrificing your dwell times = less spark.

Make no mistake however, MSD is a very good system. It's proven. Throwing out an MSD to switch to inductive on a dizzy would be silly. However, if you are YET to upgrade your ignition system, and are not planning on exceeding 6000rpm. Inductive should be considered.

 

I mentioned COP and CPP before and there were a few questions.

COP and CPP stands for Coil on Plug and Coil Per Plug Respectively. The difference is COP the coil connects directly to the plug, there is no spark lead. With CPP the coils are mounted remotely and a lead run to the plug.

COP and CPP systems take out the dizzy all together, a single coil fires each plug. This gives less variation in timing, greater reliability and less resistive points for loss in spark energy.

The coils duty is 1/6th sequential or 1/3 wasted, that of a dizzy coil. So, you can run full dwell well above 10,000rpm for max spark on an inductive system.

 

COP/CPP waste spark means exactly that. It is a coil on plug or a coil per plug installation that uses only a crank trigger to run.

 

To expand,

To get the correct timing on a dizzy you only need a signal every TDC. So for a 6 cylinder you need 6 signals per camshaft rotation. The dizzy sends the spark to the correct plug.

WIthout the dizzy you need to tell the ECU which coil to fire. So it needs to know TDC on number 1 cylinder so it can correctly sequence the firing order. The first version of this is a trigger wheel on the crank.

 

There are 720 degrees crankshaft rotation, per ignition event, per cylinder.

Meaning the computer only knows TDC on cylinder 1. NOT if it is TDC compression or TDC exhaust stroke.

Problem? The solution is easy. The ECU simply fire's on both!

 

There will be a spark at TDC exhaust AND TDC compression. One spark ignites the fuel mix. and the other... does nothing. As it's sparking against no compression (the exhaust valve is open)and into exhaust fumes. Therefore it is 'Wasted'

 

Thats where it comes from. Waste spark means every second spark on each cylinder is 'wasted'

 

To get full sequential spark, you need to know if the engine is on the exhaust, or compression stroke. This information is picked from the Camshaft via a camshaft position sensor.

 

Questions? =P

Nice explanation, COP would be tricky on a crossflow because of the angle of the spark plug you would need a way to mount and secure the coil. I did use LS1 coils but wasn't happy with them and in the process of changing to ls3 coils. Im running mine sequentially using a motec ignition expander which you wire the coils out of in firing order and the ECU signals when to start firing, as my ECU only has 4 ign outputs we decided to run it this way but could have run wasted spark from the ecu. Time will tell how it all goes.

[ando76 4,354]

Question Crazy

 

Q. Can you use a stock EF balancer with its standard crank angle sensor, magnet etc.  to send signal to an MSD, then use a standard dizzy to distribute the spark through a single coil? 

[TF_250 398]

Would be something to look at but it would depend on weather the MSD would recognize the signal form the sensor.

[Thom 6,650]

What about using an Ef balancer, and cam position sensor (goes in the dizzy hole, you would have to turn the gear upside down to fit x-flow) to run sequential instead of wasted spark?

[Crazy2287 1,886]

I don't know if the E series balancers fit. I am not aware of ford running anything other than hall effect sensors so as for the sensor, yes, that will work. Sensors on cars usually have the conditioner built into them so they will put out a 5v logic or 12v square wave. As for running a setup like this then using a dizzy. No point, If your staying dizzy just use a TFI.

 

Possible Thom. You will need some sort of dummy dizzy anyway to transmit drive to the oil pump. The ECU you use will need to support 6 sequential ign outputs.

Directly on the camshaft is ideal as on the dizzy drive is a small amount of play. Would need a deeper understanding on how the software treats the position information to know if that would have any effect.

[ando76 4,354]

What about using an Ef balancer, and cam position sensor (goes in the dizzy hole, you would have to turn the gear upside down to fit x-flow) to run sequential instead of wasted spark?

might work in efi computer systems but I'm trying to come up with a budget set up for carb application, using mostly Ford Parts with my MSD 6AL2 programmable ignition.  It only has the input for trigger. 

[ando76 4,354]

I'm sure e series balancers fit, will just need to change alt drive pulley and water pump drive to suit serp belt and make a mount for the magnetic trigger thingy (sorry when it comes to electricity I seriously have no clue - u cant see it and it will kill you = pay someone for me). 

 

I hear what your saying about the dizzy.  I'm just trying to get around the spark scatter issue at high rpm.  I thought if we just make the dizzy distribute spark rather than giving trigger point and distributing spark we might get around it.

 

What would you suggest then to get the spark from the MSD to the plug using the ef balancer, pick up etc.?   

[Crazy2287 1,886]

Andy, the MSD gear will trigger form the hall effect pulse received by the TFI Distributor no worries. Heaps of guys are doing it. up to and in excess of 6000rpm.

How hard are you planning to push your system?

As for spark scatter, I'm not familiar enough with it to comment if it is caused by the signal, the rotor or both. But i would lean to it being a issue with distributed spark delivery not the pickup. Happy to hear otherwise?

[Clevo120Y 815]

The EF chopper wheel has been attempted before, stretching my memory but I believe it fouls on the crossy timing cover.

[ando76 4,354]

The EF chopper wheel has been attempted before, stretching my memory but I believe it fouls on the crossy timing cover.

Yes just like the chev balancers do. a spacer can be made up like Jason did or u can clearance the timing cover to suit. 

 

Crazy - My current set up is the EST triggering the 6AL2 then a HVC2 coil.  I have the rev limiter set at 6600 and I give it a rap twice every lap of the speedway track for 10 laps in heats and up to 40 laps in a feature. 

 

My theory on the spark scatter is the inconsistencies in signal caused by harmonics running through the dizzy at these sustained high revs.  my engines run from 2600rpm at the start up to 6600 at the end of the straight and down to 4000rpm in the turns, depending on track, traffic etc. They are certainly not shopping trollies. 

 

I could go the same way as Wazzy and use the universal MSD crank trigger set up but I am just trying to see if it can be done using factory components.  Call me weird but I just get my kicks that way. 

[Duckboy01 6]

The EF chopper wheel has been attempted before, stretching my memory but I believe it fouls on the crossy timing cover.

you are correct Clevo, I use a EF balancer on mine and I had to remove the chopper wheel as it hit the timing cover

[Crazy2287 1,886]

It appears the term "spark scatter" is used to describe variations between ignition timing between cylinders. This video shows scatter caused by maufacturing issues with the pictups for the ignition signal, skip to 4:00 in to see it:

<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e_qQ1uJ2ew<br /><br />

 

 

It would otherwise be a static scatter, exactly the same on each cylinder. A randomised scatter would be due to play between the dizzy gear and cam, the dizzy shaft and the timing chain. It would most likely always be due to the pickup signal so moving the pickup signal to the crank, from what i understand, will eliminate spark scatter.<br /><br />You couldn't use a standard missing tooth wheel if you didn't want to run an ECU. You would need a 3 tooth (or notch) wheel installed at the proper phase to emulate the 6 vein pickup in the dizzy. this signal sent to the MSD, timing would then be controlled by moving the 3 tooth wheel pickup(hall sensor), not the distributor.<br /><br /><br />......

[slydog 7,873]

Andy, the MSD gear will trigger form the hall effect pulse received by the TFI Distributor no worries. Heaps of guys are doing it. up to and in excess of 6000rpm.

 

 

 

I know of 1 that hits 7200RPM...and it's not mine.Wazzy pull's his to 7200 but stops there due to his cast pistons from memory but his crank trigger worked wonder's he claims.Funny but I'd like to see which parts seem to work better avoiding/limiting spark scatter such as blocks cranks,cams,cam types and ignitions systems.

 

There's a XE from WA owned by Ryan Humphies that use to have 250 power and he would turn that to 7500rpm and bang gears thru a Top Loader but I don't know what his ignition was.Use to just stick it full tilt on the limiter for minutes...YIKES!

 

[Crazy2287 1,886]

Thats a fkn crossy. Daymnnnnnnnn

[gerg 10,871]

Wow that's up there for a Crossy but I don't think it's quite 7500. Definitely being punished, and that last puff of smoke while driving out wasn't from the tyres...!

[slydog 7,873]

Yeah a backyard build too bro,home ported head 200 rods,ACL's Top Loader 4.11's and a HEAVY foot.He converted the car for circuit racing and must be related to Ants as he put a LS in it...