EFI Crossflow..worth playing with

[Stumps 369]

Just added an XF EFI crossflow engine to my pile of parts, It's pretty complete except it doesnt have the throttle body or airbix/maf sensor.

 

Is the injection system worth doing anything with? I have the EEC that came with it can a J3 chip be used to reprogramme it to suit better cams etc?

 

I also have the EEC from my old XG, could that be used instead as I have a complete loom to go with that?

 

What about the manifold? I've heard that they arent much good above 4000 rpm.

 

Am I better off scrapping the EFI on it and using an aftermarket setup like a sniper (to keep things simple) or go a haltech and mod a later model manifold to suit.

 

Would the factory manifold and a J3 be able to make 250hp? I haven't seen many people do interesting things with these outside of strapping on a big turbo and making boat loads of power.

 

Can they be made to go better NA?

[deankxf 21,327]

52 minutes ago, Stumps said:

Can they be made to go better NA?

@Panko adapted the efi from an E series to his, i can't remember if it's still in use or reverted back to the XF efi set up. does require mods and wiring mods.

 

54 minutes ago, Stumps said:

What about the manifold? I've heard that they arent much good above 4000 rpm.

cam and valve springs are the reason most crossflows don't rev past 4000 ish. i had Gas Research LPG on my one, with 11-1compression which was too high for my cam choice, a gas research "voodoo" cam (basically a tow cam, slightly bigger than the efi cam)it also ran out about 4000rpm, made 99rwkw at 4000 rpm on LPG though. 

 

a mate at the time had the stock efi engine with a cold air intake to the bumper, and 2.5" exhaust also, and it made 107rwkw i assume on 98 fuel at probably higher rpm like 4500 (don't recall the revs being mentioned).

 

the long runners are good for low rpm torque, but it you are going for revs, a 4 barrel manifold with sniper would probably be better if going aftermarket (also puts the intake away from the red hot exhaust side. )

the efi cams were said to chew out/lose lobes.. but i think they used to do this on carby models but the idle quality wasn't as noticeable with a carby compared to the finicky air flow meter setup. 

 

the upgrade from stock back in the day was to fit an EFI cam to the carby engines, slightly better performance (stock ones don't have a fuel pump lobe, but crow cams version did) 

 

the E2 head on these EFI engines was the best stock head from memory. (that could have been the XE version though?) 

 

if you were rebuilding a crossflow engine from scratch, it wouldn't matter much what you started with. just need a end goal in mind, with the look you want (do you want a carby manifold or efi look etc) and then build around cam choice for the revs/power/diff ratio you can live with.. (if you want it to rev to 5500rpm, it's going to be doughy under 2,500/3000 ish and will need 3.23 ish to 3.5 ish to get the thing moving with an auto especially wanting a high stall converter) if you had no overdrive, this is just a lot of noise at 100kmh with a 3.23/3.5 ratio diff. overdrive (basically only likely with a 5 speed manual) makes it ok to live with. 

 

the engine builders i dealt with 20 odd years ago always asked.. (even the crow website had similar questions for choosing a cam) what is the intended use? if you didn't care how much a slug it was on 0-40kmh you could chuck in a fairly big cam and leave the 2.92 diff ratio in. (My XE panelvan was like this, was slow to 40kmh before it took off and did nearly 90kmh in first gear of the BW40 auto.. .sat on 100/110kmh happily but get it down to 80 in 3rd gear and it kind of needed kicking back to 2nd to accelerate decently. )

end goal, fuel choice etc are far more important than the hp number in my opinion with these pre OHC engines, the cars are geared for highway cruising and putting around suburbia with a car load of people. 

 

 

[Stumps 369]

Hey, i'm just collecting bits while can for the XB and this EFI crossflow came my way, seemed too good to just leave.

 

I know if I went carby it'd be very useful in the XB, but my end goal is for that car to run EFI and hoping to get it to behave more like my G6 ecoboost (228rwkw's).

 

I'd be over the moon if it could crack a 13, but would also be happy if the old girl had 100-150 more hp at the flywheel.

 

Really just weighing up cost vs performance vs effort vs cool factor.

 

Happy to spend a bit of money if the end result is worth while but at the same time I dont wanna put to much effort in to it, far too old, fat and lazy to be swinging of spanners all the time these days.

 

List of engines I got to work with currently.

 

250 log motor in XB, 77000km's original

 

250 2V fresh rebuilt but may be getting sold before too long but still an option right now

 

XG 4.0 EFI, running but probably wants a freshen up, bit noisy in the topend.

 

AU VCT 4.0, has about 170K km's and would need a freshen up I'd say

 

XF EFI crossflow 4.1, has 200k+ km's and will need rebuilding

 

XE carby 4.1 same deal as the XF motor

 

I have the correct bellhousings to suit either the Sohc motors or the Crossflow and the car already has the XG 3.27 LSD in it.

 

 

 

 

[deankxf 21,327]

3 minutes ago, Stumps said:

XG 4.0 EFI, running but probably wants a freshen up, bit noisy in the topend.

top end noise is likely just lifters needing cleaning. if you can be bothered pulling them apart. with my ones in the past, going up slightly thicker oil shut mine up. 
risk of losing the shims and stripping rocker assy threads in the head when messing with old stuff. 

 
ecoboost power/torque would be hard to match without boost on any of the engines above. 

 

 

 

[Stumps 369]

20 minutes ago, deankxf said:

ecoboost power/torque would be hard to match without boost on any of the engines above. 

 

 

 

Yep it's a scary little 2litre that one, I've embarrassed VE and VF V8's and the odd XR6T with that thing, its been and awesome car over the last 5 years. 

 

I'd love to shove that running gear in the XB, but a 4 banger XB just doesnt sit right with me...

 

So I'll have to just try to come close with the XB, luckily weight is on the XB's side compared to the FG...so If I can use gearing and a lighter weight to compensate for the lack of boost, then that will be good, not after a side by side comparison but something close and fun...

 

Still wont even come close to fuel economy of that ecoboost, it'll do 6.4 litres per 100 kays all day long on the highway sitting on 113kmh's...

 

 

[Panko 2,531]

Ok a lot to unpack here. 

 

As Dean mentioned above, yes I have done a full EL ECU with J3 conversion into my factory EFi XF Ghia wagon with a 5 speed box. 

 

It is not worth using a J3 in the XF ECU. it would plug in, whether it does anything to the ECU im not sure. I know back in the day you could run a Moates Quarterhorse in the factory ECU to tune them. 
The EL ECU is a much faster processor than the XF and early E series ECUs. You need a J3 in the EL ECU so it doesn't look for smartlock etc. 

 

The cost of the whole conversion is relatively inexpensive. 

The pin out from XF to EL is identical apart from 1 pin, which needs to be moved. 
You need to install an oxygen sensor. the pin the signal wire for the oxygen sensor in the EL ECU is an unused pin in the XF wiring, so you can add a new pin in the right spot. 

You need to run a MAP sensor and IAT sensor. these sensors align with the pins in the XF wiring for VAF and VAT (vane air flow and vane air temp) (one of these two is the single pin that must be moved in the wiring harness) 

You must use an E series ISC valve and remote mount it and pipe it to the engine to the same fittings as the factory ISC valve. The solenoids operate on a different duty cycle, and the EL ECU will do weird shit to the XF unit, and the car will not idle properly, and hold RPM when you don't want it to. 

 

Above is the hardest things. 

 

The pros; 

 

- Faster throttle response. and I mean basically zero lag from the moment you touch the throttle. 

- Higher rev range. the engine WILL rev happier and better. 

- Power and Torque increase. 

  -  My engine is original and has 350,000km on it. its tired and low on compression, but doing this conversion made significant improvements to the car engine performance. 

 

As Dean said above, I did return the car back to stock, because I was having major running issues, and i got sick of not being able to drive the car. after fault finding for weeks, the issue ended up being nothing to do with the EL ECU conversion, but it was the coolant temp sensor that had failed. I never went back to the EL ECU to try it again since replacing the temp sensor, and have no geared up to go to Haltech for my when my fresh crossflow goes in. 

 

Going to Haltech is not a cheap exercise. the ECU itself is thousands of $$$, then I had a patch harness made by a pro, so the haltech will be plug and play with the factory wiring, another $500-$600, then there is the wideband oxy sensor and controller (Haltech proprietary) another $500+  then tuning on top. im still yet to purchase the wide band oxy and controller. 

 

If you are just looking for a way to improve a freshly warmed up crossflow and leave it at that, go the EL ECU conversion. if you know you're way around a computer and have any idea about fuel mapping, buy the tuning interface and tune the J3 yourself. finding a tuner to work on the J3 now is getting pretty hard. 

 

If you want a big horsepower fine tuned engine, go to Haltech, but be ready to spend $$$. 

 

As for the manifolds, they will flow. They will take boost and flow quite well. they run a massive throttle body, so much so that XF throttle bodies are an upgrade for VL Turbo commodores on the RB30s. 

As Dean mentioned, the long runners are great for low down torque. my Ghia wagon pulls like a freight train, even with stock injection and the high kms, it hauls really good. is it fast? god no. does it rev? god no. its done and dusted by 4000rpm. but with the tall gearing, at 4000rpm in 3rd gear, im pulling well over 100km/h. 

Do the manifolds limit power and RPM? maybe and maybe. however there are EFI turbo crossflows out there, that were making 290rwkw 10-15 years ago, with less sophisticated aftermarket ECUs. using the stock intake manifolds. 

 

Again as Dean said above, valve springs are the biggest issue with RPM. 

 

My new crossflow for my car runs a mid range cam from crow cams. its rev range is up to 5500-6000rpm. for this reason, the head on the new engine has heavy valve springs and roller rockets. 

I plan to make that thing rev, while keeping it turn key reliable with fuel injection, driven by haltech. 

 

E2 heads are indeed the best factory crossflow head. they are the unleaded EFi heads, so XF. 

 

I hope this all helps. if you decide to go down the EL ECU conversion, I can give you loads of info, and photos from my conversion. 

 

[Stumps 369]

https://www.tiperformance.com.au/knowledge-base/running-ea-eb-ed-el-falcon-eec-v-efi-on-an-xf-crossflow-4-1-with-a-j3-chip/?srsltid=AfmBOopS9kaRx4Qi6fNJzQ0IEk8T8nfkAX9cAk6TAy3Ajs3sszl1oSuy

 

I found this, seems the E series computer is the go on NA cars...I'd assume the XG ECU is the same as an EB's so using the XG wiring loom is a viable option and should be pretty easy swap to the XB.

 

Would I be able to swap the in tank fuel pump and sender unit over from the XG to the XB' fuel tank or are they very different?

 

[deankxf 21,327]

 

1 minute ago, Stumps said:

Would I be able to swap the in tank fuel pump and sender unit over from the XG to the XB' fuel tank or are they very different?

EA to EL wagon tank is the go for the XB sedan i'm fairly sure. (doesn't have a spare wheel recess but bolts in from memory)

the fuel sender will need mods, i saw someone additionally fitted the XB sender to the EL tank and ignored the EL gauge, just depends if you want to do it that way or not. 

[Panko 2,531]

yep J3 from Ti Performance. 

 

100% XG/EB wiring harness will be the same, and seeing as you would be retrofitting the wiring, that would be the perfect time to make the changes to the ECU plug to match the EL wiring. 

 

Im not sure which fuel tanks fit XB sedans. but i do know wagon tanks are the same from maybe XB, right up to EL, as in they will fit and bolt in the same, but outlets and fuel senders are different. 

 

In the case of an XF wagon tank (same for carby or EFi) the sender and fuel pump are completely separated. so the fuel pump/pick up comes from the passenger side of the tank, and the fuel sender is on top underneath the spare wheel holder. 

 

I would look for a fuel tank that fits that run seperate pump and sender units, to make the fuel gauge work easier.  

[Stumps 369]

Is there a disadvantage to running an external pump instead of an in tank one? There is plenty of room on the underside to bolt one there.

 

Is modifying the XG/EB inlet manifold to suit the crossflow head a better option than using the stock EFI manifold instead?

 

Essentially turning the engine in to an XF/EB hybrid...would this work?

 

I'd like to keep a prexflow/xflow style block as to not needing to cut up things and I can reuse the new heavy duty clutch and the bellhousing that have just been done to suit the T5 which works like a dream in the XB with the old log motor.

[Panko 2,531]

29 minutes ago, Stumps said:

Is there a disadvantage to running an external pump instead of an in tank one? There is plenty of room on the underside to bolt one there.

 

Is modifying the XG/EB inlet manifold to suit the crossflow head a better option than using the stock EFI manifold instead?

 

Essentially turning the engine in to an XF/EB hybrid...would this work?

 

I'd like to keep a prexflow/xflow style block as to not needing to cut up things and I can reuse the new heavy duty clutch and the bellhousing that have just been done to suit the T5 which works like a dream in the XB with the old log motor.

 

factory EFi crossflows run both internal and external pumps. 

 

internal being a low pressure lift pump that feeds the high pressure pump to the engine. 

 

Yes there the EB style log manifold has been done before. something to note is, on your XG, how hard the distributor is to get to with the log manifold...keep that in mind. again if you were going for outright performance, a log manifold will always be better, but the factory manifolds are fine. as per my previous comments, there are turbocharged crossflows running the stock intake manifold making insane power. 

[Stumps 369]

How do the usual crossflow performance cams respond to using the XF or EB style injection?

 

I was thinking of a build using something like rows 14650 cam or something similar?

 

Can I use a single fuel pump or does the eec require a low pressure one as well?

[Panko 2,531]

26 minutes ago, Stumps said:

How do the usual crossflow performance cams respond to using the XF or EB style injection?

 

I was thinking of a build using something like rows 14650 cam or something similar?

 

Can I use a single fuel pump or does the eec require a low pressure one as well?

That I can’t answer. Ive only ever run the EL injection on a stock engine. 
it should handle it fine, its just a matter of tuning the J3 chip to suit. 
 

not sure about the pumps. Im sure there would be a way around having to run an in tank pump. But i also can’t give an answer to that. 

[Stumps 369]

I would assume that to use the BB Manifold I would need to use the appropriate computer (EF-EL) as well to allow the manifold to work correctly?

[deankxf 21,327]

4 hours ago, Stumps said:

I would assume that to use the BB Manifold I would need to use the appropriate computer (EF-EL) as well to allow the manifold to work correctly?

 

you can run an RPM SWITCH (Jaycar sell them) 
the EL switches at 3,800rpm from memory, but if you were on a dyno you could find the best time to switch it over. 

the intake doesn't bolt up to the Xflow head, the EB manifold i saw on a crossflow once (was on a kingswood ute) was cut off at the flange and welded to the XF intake runner flange. 

if you read Thom's 4.0 thread, you'd get the best BUDGET combo from a OHC engine. 
the basic gist of it, is AU egas bottom end, EF tickford head, EA cfi cam is the biggest stock cam other than the super rare XG XR6 cam, (aftermarket used cams are probably cheap now and bigger)
BBM manifold switching at 3800rpm, 
Thom got 180rwkw from that combo,  but piecing it together now would be a lot of running around

 

[Panko 2,531]

if you are set on using an e series log manifold for BBM manifold, what I would consider is this. with today's CNC technology, it might be viable to have an adapter plate made that adapts from crossflow bolt pattern to E series bolt pattern. could be cut out of billet alloy. 

 

But honestly, i don't think it is worth it. if you are not looking to chase insane HP and squeeze every last bit out of the engine, stick to the stock EFi intake. 

[Stumps 369]

I'd be chasing 220-250 bhp from an EFI crossflow, not a huge ask, probably easier to achieve with a 4 barrel carb but I want the drivability that EFI offers not some high strung tempermental pig.

[Panko 2,531]

36 minutes ago, Stumps said:

I'd be chasing 220-250 bhp from an EFI crossflow, not a huge ask, probably easier to achieve with a 4 barrel carb but I want the drivability that EFI offers not some high strung tempermental pig.

 

Should be easy to do. 

 

Back in the day, Dick Johnson used the "SVO" name plate to build two XF SVO falcons. They were naturally aspirated, fuel injected crossflows, and produced around 150kw (200hp) that is not bad with basic technology and early injection tuning. 

 

250hp should be easy with today's technology, cams, machining etc etc. 

I don't think you're asking too much, but perhaps trying to overcomplicate it by wanting to run E series manifolds. 

 

Dick Johnson also teamed up with HKS to build turbo crossflow falcons, which ran HKS piggyback ECUs. they were good for 159kw in unleaded form. I have one those turbo kits for my car, and as far as i am concerned, with a modern Haltech ECU, better cam and things like roller rockers etc. I believe ill achieve way more than its original 159kw using the same turbo kit. 

[Stumps 369]

I have two ideas currently floating in my head..

 

One involves using the EFI crossflow, fitting a crow 14650 cam, rebuild the head with oversized valves, bore 30 thou over and using a J3 chip and the factory EFI manifold.

 

The second is to rebuild the original engine with a similer cam to the 14650 xflow cam.

Rebuild the head with a 2V conversion to the log and oversized valves. Bore 30 thou, and fit a holley Sniper BBD EFI kit to it and a streetfire ignition module.

 

Both would be fitted to the T5 and 3.45 or 3.73 gears and dual 2 inch system that is currently fitted.

 

The Xflow would make the most power I would assume, but the log motor would look pretty stock under bonnet and retain the classic 250 look but would probably be down 50hp or so over the Xflow.

 

I suspect the pre xflow would be a more expensive build due to the required head work and the holley EFI system.

 

I hate decisions....

[deankxf 21,327]

58 minutes ago, Stumps said:

I suspect the pre xflow would be a more expensive build due to the required head work and the holley EFI system.

 

I hate decisions....

 

enjoy it as is for longer before deciding.

bonus for the crossflow is also that you can go back to the current combo if you don't like it being highly strung with the big cam. 

[Stumps 369]

Is a 230ish degree cam considered big in a 250?

[deankxf 21,327]

45 minutes ago, Stumps said:

Is a 230ish degree cam considered big in a 250?

something that revs to 5500 odd will be doughy in the lower revs from My experience,  but not sure how far mine was tuned (did it have a bump in compression ratio? regraphed dissy? cam timing degree'd in? carby tuning properly etc? 
 

the manual box and 3.45/3.7 diff ratio will help a lot though. 

[Stumps 369]

I was thinking 10:1 comp and regraphed dizzy or streetfire for either builds

 

I can get the log head redone with big valves, porting, heavy duty valves springs and a 2V conversion for $1800 which isnt as expensive as what I thought it'd cost.

 

Definately gunna run EFI....the old strommy and points dizzy currently on the car make cold starts a nightmare out this way of a morning.

[deankxf 21,327]

1 hour ago, Stumps said:

Definately gunna run EFI....the old strommy and points dizzy currently on the car make cold starts a nightmare out this way of a morning.

would have assumed it would start easy with a pull of the choke, 2 pumps of accelerator and turn the key. ease off the choke as it feels like it wants it. 

 

efi is simple though, takes the brain work out of it, also for tuning you can often get them to self learn from a base tune if you have enough smarts to deal with it . 

 

[Stumps 369]

Its about 6 pumps and give it a kick in the guts and then give it 5 minutes on half choke before it'll be drivable...lol