86 XF Falcon Ute not starting

[XF EDDIE 124]

Hey fellas. Recently I got myself an 86 XF Falcon Ute with the plan to get her on the road and daily it. However I've got several snags with the biggest being the engine not running. It's an unleaded 250 xflow with est. The closest I can get it to running is when I hold it at wide open throttle and even then it barely gets to idle rpm and spits out of the carby. The motor is in good condition with 130000 KMs on it and running dead on 150 psi on all cylinders. I have rebuilt and then replaced the carby (original one was an 86 DA TD and the replacement is an 86 DA TD not sure if that matters) checked the timing with it being on °6 while cranking and has strong spark on all cylinders. I have run out of ideas and hope someone here can help me with getting it running. To make things worse the ignition locked up after I took the key out and will not move so I have had to pull the switch and use a screwdriver. I have tried wiggling it and moving the steering wheel off the lock with no luck so I'm gonna unbolt the lock for now and see if I can free it up. Any advice appreciated and thanks in advance

[deankxf 20,694]

I haven't got time tonight but should be able to give you some more things to check tomorrow. 

 

but off the top of My head, you should check your fuel cut solenoid on the carby is getting power/(or vacuum if that's it's style)

 

cars this old with low kms often have stuffed hoses and there's a chance it's sucking air from the fuel line joins(one under the floor of passengers left foot area is a common issue)

try running fuel from a jerry can/bottle instead of the fuel tank first up to rule out that side of things

i may think of more overnight or @SPArKy_Dave may have a clue to look into 

 

the ignition lock caused @CHESTNUTXE some grief in the same way, i hadn't had many issues removing them in the past but they can be annoying (low kms = less worn to jiggle pick, but a locksmith could get it out easily if you removed it (sometimes easier to remove the steering column if you can't access the bolts easy.. *tamper proof you'll need to cut a slot in them or chisel them undone)

 

[XF EDDIE 124]

9 minutes ago, deankxf said:

I haven't got time tonight but should be able to give you some more things to check tomorrow. 

 

but off the top of My head, you should check your fuel cut solenoid on the carby is getting power/(or vacuum if that's it's style)

 

cars this old with low kms often have stuffed hoses and there's a chance it's sucking air from the fuel line joins(one under the floor of passengers left foot area is a common issue)

try running fuel from a jerry can/bottle instead of the fuel tank first up to rule out that side of things

i may think of more overnight or @SPArKy_Dave may have a clue to look into 

 

the ignition lock caused @CHESTNUTXE some grief in the same way, i hadn't had many issues removing them in the past but they can be annoying (low kms = less worn to jiggle pick, but a locksmith could get it out easily if you removed it (sometimes easier to remove the steering column if you can't access the bolts easy.. *tamper proof you'll need to cut a slot in them or chisel them undone)

 

Hey mate thanks for the response. I know the electronic shutoff is working but it has a vacuum plunger that I haven't tested yet. I am running from a bottle as I have the fuel tank for rust repair s under the tank. I haven't checked those line joiners yet as I have been getting fuel to the carby but I'll give them a look just incase it's starving out. 

[CHESTNUTXE 7,631]

make sure your dizzy is not a efi one,i went thru this once and could not get the engine to run under 2000rpm,once the carby dizzy was fitted it fired up perfect.

[SPArKy_Dave 9,184]

8 hours ago, XF EDDIE said:

Hey fellas. I've got several snags with the biggest being the engine not running. It's an unleaded 250 xflow with est. The closest I can get it to running is when I hold it at wide open throttle and even then it barely gets to idle rpm and spits out of the carby.

 

If it won't run at all unless held at WOT, suggests either massive over-fuelling, exhaust blockage, or timing related.

A temp gravity-fed fuel supply will work fine.

 

Put a vacuum gauge on it, check ur firing order, from cyl no.1 at TDC (153624).

If a suspected exhaust blockage - undo the EGR pipe/s into the manifold, and see if anything improves?

 

Wild-card -

a lazy/failing hall effect sensor in the distributor can still give a strong spark, but with incorrect timing.

 

What's the vehicle history - did u buy it non-running?

 

[XF EDDIE 124]

36 minutes ago, SPArKy_Dave said:

 

If it won't run at all unless held at WOT, suggests either massive over-fuelling, exhaust blockage, or timing related.

A temp gravity-fed fuel supply will work fine.

 

Put a vacuum gauge on it, check ur firing order, from cyl no.1 at TDC (153624).plugs 

If a suspected exhaust blockage - undo the EGR pipe/s into the manifold, and see if anything improves?

 

Wild-card -

a lazy/failing hall effect sensor in the distributor can still give a strong spark, but with incorrect timing.

 

What's the vehicle history - did u buy it non-running?

 

Yeah bought it non running after it had sat for a while I have had a vacuum gauge on it and she barely pulls any vacuum while it's running. I the firing order from the cap to the plugs is right but I'll check the rotor position at ted. Just wondering can a hall effect out of a tfi dizzy be put in a est one?

[CHESTNUTXE 7,631]

I would ditch the est box and dizzy ,just try a xe style dizzy and STD coil,surely you might have one lying around 

[XF EDDIE 124]

3 hours ago, CHESTNUTXE said:

I would ditch the est box and dizzy ,just try a xe style dizzy and STD coil,surely you might have one lying around 

I'd have to cannibalize my f100 and I'd like to try everything else first

[CHESTNUTXE 7,631]

Fair enough just remember iron Head crossy has different dizzy shaft.you need xe xf

[XF EDDIE 124]

2 hours ago, CHESTNUTXE said:

Fair enough just remember iron Head crossy has different dizzy shaft.you need xe xf

The f100 has an alloy head 1 xd motor. Is that compatible?

[CHESTNUTXE 7,631]

Dean would no that one 100% my bet is yes 1st of the alloy heads

[deankxf 20,694]

2 hours ago, XF EDDIE said:

The f100 has an alloy head 1 xd motor. Is that compatible?

 

yes, but if you fit it, unplug the ECU in the kick panel  of the XF (this could also be the current issue also, they have been known to go bad even 20yrs ago)

 

I had an XF ute, fitted the XD alloy head/XE dissy (leaded XF is same but with the later cap, has a specific rotor button for it, you'd need to order if keeping it)

 

it worked for ages but at some point the ECU in the kick panel(wasn't needed) had an issue and caused ignition breakdown. i simply unplugged it and it was fine with the XD dissy again. 

 

to fit it, all you need to do is put the wires onto the coil  (2 wires) and it will work  (unplug the ECU in the left kick panel)

 

the ECU is specific to the carby models, EST sticker shoud/will be on it.  might pay to check that before you go further,  and if you can locate another to try it could be worth a shot.  (unleaded aka 1986 XF utes/vans upto 1992 should have one as they were all carby.  otherwise only sedan/wagon/fairlane etc from 1986/1987 with a carby would have them (rare now)

[XF EDDIE 124]

3 minutes ago, deankxf said:

 

yes, but if you fit it, unplug the ECU in the kick panel  of the XF (this could also be the current issue also, they have been known to go bad even 20yrs ago)

 

I had an XF ute, fitted the XD alloy head/XE dissy (leaded XF is same but with the later cap, has a specific rotor button for it, you'd need to order if keeping it)

 

it worked for ages but at some point the ECU in the kick panel(wasn't needed) had an issue and caused ignition breakdown. i simply unplugged it and it was fine with the XD dissy again. 

 

to fit it, all you need to do is put the wires onto the coil  (2 wires) and it will work  (unplug the ECU in the left kick panel)

 

the ECU is specific to the carby models, EST sticker shoud/will be on it.  might pay to check that before you go further,  and if you can locate another to try it could be worth a shot.  (unleaded aka 1986 XF utes/vans upto 1992 should have one as they were all carby.  otherwise only sedan/wagon/fairlane etc from 1986/1987 with a carby would have them (rare now)

Don't have any way to get a cheap known good est box at the moment. I'll try what sparky Dave suggested and if none of that fixes it I'll temporarily fit the dizzy out of the f100. Any way to check the est system before swapping parts? I heard they have a self test function but I don't know for sure and it would be preferable to narrow it to the est.

[deankxf 20,694]

9 minutes ago, XF EDDIE said:

Don't have any way to get a cheap known good est box at the moment. I'll try what sparky Dave suggested and if none of that fixes it I'll temporarily fit the dizzy out of the f100. Any way to check the est system before swapping parts? I heard they have a self test function but I don't know for sure and it would be preferable to narrow it to the est.

 

anything to do with testing for Me was swap in another one. (swap tronics)

@SPArKy_Dave may have some info links,

 

 

 

 

[XF EDDIE 124]

@SPArKy_DaveI pulled the EGR and she fkin ran! I'll disconnect the rest of the system and let you know how it goes

 

[deankxf 20,694]

40 minutes ago, XF EDDIE said:

@SPArKy_DaveI pulled the EGR and she fkin ran! I'll disconnect the rest of the system and let you know how it goes

 

that's a win, it may be a blocked cat, or the guts of it blocking something further down the line if it fell out (one of My utes and a sedan did this, it came loose/turned sideways and was blocking the flow in the cat pipe..
i made a bolt fit tight in a piece of garden hose and smashed it up  while still fitted to the car (both times) due to i don't like udoing rusty exhaust bolts where possible.
could be a rats nest in the muffler if it's been parked for yonks also i guess

 

[CHESTNUTXE 7,631]

Give that man a cigar

[XF EDDIE 124]

I got the rest of the exhaust undone and she's sweet. How "unfortunate" that the stock exhaust is blocked. I guess I'm now forced to make a 2.5" exhaust system for it. In all seriousness thank you all for the help. Without the help I got here I would still be ripping my hair out hunting this problem. All I got to do now is fix that ignition lock and she's back on the road!

[SPArKy_Dave 9,184]

15 hours ago, XF EDDIE said:

Just wondering can a hall effect out of a tfi dizzy be put in a est one?

 

Yes I believe they all use the same sensor.

Only the metal chopper wheel is different, so re-use ur carby one.

 

Somewhere on the forum is an EST tutorial, showing captures of the EST timing maps, diagnostic codes, etc

[SPArKy_Dave 9,184]

5 hours ago, XF EDDIE said:

@SPArKy_DaveI pulled the EGR and she fkin ran! I'll disconnect the rest of the system and let you know how it goes

 

 

Nice work, easy fix!

Yeah, low vacuum would've been the giveaway.

 

Undoing the EGR gave it an exhaust... granted it'd be breathing through a straw,

but fine for idling.

If it's on LPG, blockage could be from lean/backfire's, etc. Thoughts, @deankxf?

 

@XF EDDIE if ur in Victoria, OzFalcon has club rego accreditation also.

Send me a PM, if u want to do that.

[XF EDDIE 124]

1 hour ago, SPArKy_Dave said:

 

Nice work, easy fix!

Yeah, low vacuum would've been the giveaway.

 

Undoing the EGR gave it an exhaust... granted it'd be breathing through a straw,

but fine for idling.

If it's on LPG, blockage could be from lean/backfire's, etc. Thoughts, @deankxf?

 

@XF EDDIE if ur in Victoria, OzFalcon has club rego accreditation also.

Send me a PM, if u want to do that.

Nah mate I'm in the cancer state. I undid the exhaust from the manifold and she runs sweet. I'm thinking of just putting a whole new exhaust on it. This one is pretty rusty and I heard a 2.5" exhaust can help it significantly. Just wondering what the pipe that goes from the air cleaner to the pipe between the manifold and the cat is and whether I can rip it off if I'm not running a cat?

[deankxf 20,694]

On 4/22/2024 at 6:54 PM, XF EDDIE said:

I got the rest of the exhaust undone and she's sweet. How "unfortunate" that the stock exhaust is blocked. I guess I'm now forced to make a 2.5" exhaust system for it. In all seriousness thank you all for the help. Without the help I got here I would still be ripping my hair out hunting this problem. All I got to do now is fix that ignition lock and she's back on the road!

personally i didn't rate the 2.5" exhaust on stock engines. mine went better with 2" even than the 2.25 one,(be different if jetting etc was being done on the carby on a dyno i suspect)

unless you like noise, the 2.5" makes a lot more noise, (i still reckon they sound better with a sports muffler on the stock exhaust size )
 

that's on a stock engine that only makes power to 4000rpm at best though (due to cam/valve springs) 
 

[XF EDDIE 124]

22 hours ago, deankxf said:

personally i didn't rate the 2.5" exhaust on stock engines. mine went better with 2" even than the 2.25 one,(be different if jetting etc was being done on the carby on a dyno i suspect)

unless you like noise, the 2.5" makes a lot more noise, (i still reckon they sound better with a sports muffler on the stock exhaust size )
 

that's on a stock engine that only makes power to 4000rpm at best though (due to cam/valve springs) 
 

Aye. Had a look and it's a problem with the mufflers. They're rusted out anyway so I'm going to replace the exhaust with a stock size cat back system any recommendations for something?

[deankxf 20,694]

11 minutes ago, XF EDDIE said:

Aye. Had a look and it's a problem with the mufflers. They're rusted out anyway so I'm going to replace the exhaust with a stock size cat back system any recommendations for something?

depending how noisy you like 
I'm old, i'd go with a factory spec muffler., 

but back in the day a baffled glass pack sounded nice, the straight through ones will be similar but louder. 

 

you can delete the center resonator (often cracks anyway) for almost no difference (if anything a slightly nicer sound) 

[SPArKy_Dave 9,184]

Chambered (super turbo) mufflers are a nice happy medium, IMO.